Guess what? Many men are attracted to women, and trans women are amongst these women.
We, as a society, have not created a space for men to openly express their desire to be with trans women. Instead, we shame men who have this desire, from the boyfriends, cheaters and “chasers” to the “trade,” clients, and pornography admirers. We tell men to keep their attraction to trans women secret, to limit it to the internet, frame it as a passing fetish or transaction. In effect, we’re telling trans women that they are only deserving of secret interactions with men, further demeaning and stigmatizing trans women.
I’ve stood witness to many so-called scandals, mostly published on gossip blogs, where passing interactions with trans women spawn hundreds of headlines, particularly for a man with fame and social capital. Thousands of words have been dedicated to analyzing whether such and such famous man is now suspect, merely because he took a photo with a fan who happened to be a trans woman. This questioning has led many well-known men to adamantly defend their heterosexuality and has tarnished the reputation and careers of others. It sounds like silliness on the surface, but often times when gossip blogs are the public’s only exposure to trans women, it spreads misinformation, validates stereotypes and causes irreparable damage.
When a man can be shamed merely for interacting with a trans women – whether it be through a photograph, a sex tape or correspondences — what does this say about how society views trans women? More important, what does this do to trans women?
This pervasive ideology says that trans women are shameful, that trans women are not worthy of being seen and that trans women must remain a secret — invisible and disposable. If a man dares to be seen with a trans woman, he will likely lose social capital so he must adamantly deny, vehemently demean, trash and/or exterminate the woman in question. He must do this to maintain his standing in our patriarchal society. For a man to be associated with a trans women, in effect, is to say that he is no longer a “real” man (as if such a thing exists) because he sleeps with “fake” women (as if such a thing exists).
RELATED VIDEO: MSNBC’s Melissa Harris-Perry quotes this piece in her “Letter of Week”
The comments and conversations surrounding hip-hop DJ Mister Cee’s sex scandal-turned-resignation has been appalling, and has led me to this essay, which isn’t about him soliciting sex from someone he perceived as a trans woman. The Mister Cee “scandal” sheds light on society’s ignorance, similarly exhibited when Chris Brown, Chingy and Chad “Ochocinco” Johnson took photos with trans women; similarly exhibited when folks gender-policed Joseline Hernandez to the point where she Tweeted a nude photo to prove her cis-ness; similarly exhibited when Eddie Murphy, LL Cool J and a list of other powerful men were accused of being “caught” seeking trans women.
This anti-trans woman ideology is harmful, misogynistic and pervasive and travels way beyond the comments section of gossip blogs, and as Sylvia Rivera once said, “I will no longer put up with this shit.”
I am a trans woman. My sisters are trans women. We are not secrets. We are not shameful. We are worthy of respect, desire, and love. As there are many kinds of women, there are many kinds of men, and many men desire many kinds of women, trans women are amongst these women. And let’s be clear: Trans women are women.
The shame that society attaches to these men, specifically attacking their sexuality and shaming their attraction, directly affects trans women. It affects the way we look at ourselves. It amplifies our body-image issues, our self-esteem, our sense of possibility, of daring for greatness, of aiming for something or somewhere greater. If a young trans woman believes that the only way she can share intimate space with a man is through secret hookups, bootycalls or transaction, she will be led to engage in risky sexual behaviors that make her more vulnerable to criminalization, disease and violence; she will be led to coddle a man who takes out his frustrations about his sexuality on her with his fists; she will be led to question whether she’s worthy enough to protect herself with a condom when a man tells her he loves her; she will be led to believe that she is not worthy of being seen, that being seen heightens her risk of violence therefore she must hide who she is at all costs in order to survive.
When I was a girl finding myself, I was met with similar questions and believed I would never find someone to love me. I had learned that I was unworthy and undeserving, and it took me years to release myself from the shame and stigma society had forced upon me as a young woman. A man’s desire for my body, my brain, my brilliance and my existence is not a laughing matter because I am not a joke.
RELATED VIDEO: I appear with Laverne Cox on Huffpost Live to discuss loving trans women
When I met my boyfriend Aaron and disclosed that I am trans, he did not question his sexuality. He recognized me as a woman, and my being trans did not negate my womanhood. My relationship with Aaron is a rarity, though. Don’t get me wrong, I see our loving partnership as a blessing, but not in the same way others view it. Our relationship is marveled at largely because most people do not believe that a man like Aaron should have to “compromise” his heteronormative social standing by being with a trans woman or a woman who is not “real.”
It is rare for an openly trans woman – no matter how “passable” or attractive she is – to have a man who openly loves her, who has an unabashed desire to be seen with her, who proudly stands beside her — despite the stigma and other people’s curiosities and inappropriate questions. Those questions regarding Aaron’s sexuality are constant and fraught with assumptions that this essay can’t begin to unpack, and for a man less secure it can be difficult navigating these questions, especially if you also perceive the women you’re attracted to as shameful, as less-than-human objects you must keep secret at all costs.
It’s important that we begin truly accepting trans women as who they are, women. We are not objects to have secret sex with, to discard and to laugh at on the radio or the gossip blogosphere. We are worthy of being seen and are not dirty or shameful. Until we begin checking how we delegitimize the identities, bodies and existence of trans women and stigmatize the men who yearn to be with us, we will continue to marginalize our sisters, pushing them further into socially-sanctioned invisibility, left in the dark to fend for themselves with men who don’t have the space to explore, define and embrace their attraction to various women.
A note on commenting: All comments are moderated. Be respectful of people’s identities, bodies and pronouns. Misgendering, slurs, threats, anti-trans rhetoric and/or outright ignorance will not be tolerated.
Thanks for a thought provoking article and comments. Of course, this applies to people if other gebders, not just cisgendered, straight men (less of the heteronormativity please, Janet).
Personally, i am guilty of using the term ‘chasers’ and i acknowledge that i shouldn’t, for the reasons expressed so well in your article. However, in my defense, or at least for the benefit of clarity, i have found that some people are attracted to me *because* i am trans. That feels objectifying and is often accompanied by a sort of arrogant attitude that i should be grateful they have taken an interest in me. I do not like being taken for granted or assumed to be available just by virtue of my gender. I know that women have experienced this since time immemorial, so there is nothing unusual about this. However, that for me has been my experience of ‘chasers’ and that is why i do not find their attentions in any way flattering or welcome. Nevertheless, in light of the discussion here, i shall endeavour to be more forgiving in future and will avoid using labels that demean others.
In response to Christina regarding men who are attracted to you because you are specifically transsexual, well yeah, I guess you could view that as objectification. I’m a straight man who likes biological women as well as transwomen, hence I’m attracted to women. However, I’m not very attracted to the vagina; never really have been. I’m far more attracted to the male genitalia. But I’ve always been attracted to the female form. A transsexual woman fits that description. Sure, you could say I’m a “chaser” or just into the sex or just wanting a transwoman for her body, etc… but I’m not.
Yes, I’ve been with a transsexual escort, and while she fit all the physical qualities I liked, her personality turned me off completely and her attitude was rude…. so much in fact that we never had the actual coitus.
If we look at this objectively, I’m attracted to certain physical characteristics and a certain personality with certain qualities. Does me wanting to be with a transwoman because she has a penis and cannot get pregnant any more insulting than me wanting to be with a cis-woman because she has a vagina and can get pregnant?
That’s perfectly okay if you find it disrespectful on my or any other man’s part. But I disagree with the assumption that men who specifically date transwomen because of their male anatomy should be ignored and not taken seriously. That’s my sexual preference (a woman with a penis). The much more difficult part, in my case, is finding a partner whose personality I love.
The main point of my reply is that not all men who are attracted to transwoman are just chasers. Yes, a lot are. But then there are a lot who aren’t. Their sexual preference may be a woman with a penis but we (men) also are looking for everything else underneath that (mind, personality, etc….). I think the “chasing” and hiring escorts is mostly due to the taboo still associated with the transworld. Perhaps in decades to come, as transpeople become more accepted, more men will spring up with courage, vowing their love for their transwomen. It just becomes more arduous and disheartening when the transwomen themselves view us (straight men) as lechers and objectifying perverts.
Cheers
Thank you Janet for posting a very well written essay.
Your essay hit home really hard for me. You see, I’m a 28 years old non-op Transwoman and My best friend from high school, a heterosexual male, finds me attractive. He wants our close friendship to evolve to the next level and so do I. Before I’ve read your essay, I’ve thought a lot about how our relationship might hurt him in and future endeavors.
I have experienced a lot of transphobia when it comes to dating and have never been in a relationship as a result despite the fact I’ve been trying for 4 years now. Men do treat me a lot better than they used to and even if I still haven’t quite found the right man just yet, I feel I get a lot more mutual connection from male friends than I used to and that helps me feel more secure and hopeful that it will happen for me one day. It has also made me a lot more selective. There was a time I used to get attracted to men who would initially listen when I told them about various traumatic experiences I’d experienced. But then they would go distant. But because I wasn’t used to being listened to, the fact they had listened to me once or twice was enough for me to feel attracted to them. I had very low expectations of being in a relationship, thinking I’d be lucky just to be in a relationship after my father once said to “nobody would have you”. My first experience with a man I was interested in came 4 years ago, he was an online friend and I told him I liked him. He responded with this message:
“Since you have been honest with me about your feelings, I think it is only fair that I am honest with you. You have mentioned that there are obstacles between us. But the geographical distance is a small obstacle compared to the obstacle of who you are as a transsexual person. Maybe my warm, compassionate nature gave you the false impression that I approve of your transsexual lifestyle. Here is my honest view: I believe you should learn to appreciate the body you were given. I never told you this because I was afraid it would be perceived as judgemental. Many people would probably say our close friendship shouldn’t be possible given the fact that we hold opposite views on an issue that affects you so personally. And maybe those people are right. Maybe our friendship was only a figment supported out of my failure to speak the truth about my view on transsexual people. Maybe you will no longer desire to be my friend because you will feel offended by my view. If that is the case, I will understand. I feel like I unintentionally led you to the false hope that we could develop a different kind of relationship. For that, I apologize. Please understand that you are the first transsexual friend I ever met, and I didn’t really know how to tell you about my view about transsexual people. Like I’ve already said, I did not want to sound judgemental.”
Reading this message had a significant adverse affect on my belief in myself and made me doubt myself as a woman. I feared that no man would ever want a relationship with me. This concern was strengthened when I had a similar experience with another man almost a year later, this time on Skype. He said he didn’t think I should give up a healthy body and perform surgery on it, only to later suggest (in response to me saying that a person’s need to change gender is inherent, not just something someone can choose) that in the future brain surgery to change my mindset may be an option. At that time I had so little belief in myself that I sat and listened to him say things like that to me for a whole hour. I thought the things he said about me were true and though I wasn’t going to detransition or anything like that I did believe I was less of a person as a result. Over time the men I liked were less transphobic, though some still quite ignorant about what it is like to be transgendered and to have issues with one’s body. Some thought I was too needy. But then I managed to associate with men who treated me better, though connection was still very one-sided with them not taking an interest to speak with me. Though I don’t think that was about me as much as they were busy and doing other things, it didn’t feel so personal. Then a couple of weeks ago someone messaged me on a dating site full of support towards me and he said at one point he thought I was amazing. I think we’re just going to be friends but reading the message felt like the polar-opposite to reading the message I included earlier in this comment and our connection as friends has given me a newfound sense of security and hope that there are men out there who will want a relationship with me.
As a woman who is cis and queer, married to another woman who is trans and queer, I am so happy about reading this article and all of these comments (I admit I did not have the time to read them all). Being partner to someone who is trans one faces cisnormativity and transphobia in a very specific way. We both need to unpack our own misconceptions and prejudice towards the person we love, because growing up in a world in which trans people are marginalized, it can be difficult to view the person we love just as she is. And at the same time we often have to grapple with cisnormativity and transphobia from people around us. I have found it to be a very complex experience. But I am super happily married with my wife and it was all worth it. Also, it was most difficult in the first years of our relationship. Now most people see us just as we are, two women in love.
I LOVE YOU JANET!
Thank you for posting this wonderful article. It really gives me strength, i actually just share this on my timeline so that people would able to read this and realize that yeah we trans women are worthy to be seen in public with man that were no difference from a woman they seem to know well.
“We are not secrets. We are not shameful. We are worthy of respect, desire, and love. As there are many kinds of women, there are many kinds of men, and many men desire many kinds of women, trans women are amongst these women. And let’s be clear: Trans women are women” – I LOVE THIS!
We live in a society that is full of “labels” and “definitions” and thrives on these to inform itself. It is a long road to get past this and live in the real world of humanity and unconditional Being. Your essay sets many towards this. Kudos to you Ms. Janet Mock and THANK YOU for this positive and insightful essay.
Thank you for this insightful and directed article. It seems we are slowly coming into our own as people in society, and articles like this that highlight society’s shameful treatment of our people will slowly erode the prejudice that is so monumentally arrayed against us.
I was proud to hear from you, and at the same time I wish we can have this kind of discussion more often. I could relate to you when you and Laverne Cox were talking about DJ MR CEE on HuffPostLive and his ways of being attractive to a trans woman by the dark side of it only. As we all know, these men are not capable of being honest with themselves, and society makes them feel very much confused as well especially when our society treats us without respect and justice just by the fact that we exist. There will be men who will love being with us but they can not be open about their feeling and the only way for these men is by satisfying their sexual attraction towards us. I want more love from society towards us and the men who love us too. I hope this conversation continues. Thank you again and God bless you.
I have just recently decided to no longer deny myself what I truly desire, and what a desire is T-girls. Been in the closet my entire life about my being bi-sexual, convincing myself that my desires to have sex with men / T-girls alike, all stemmed from my being molested by an older boy when I was a boy, and were not real.
But now I’m 45 years old and have not once acted on my impulses to have a same sex fling or relationship. I am sick of being afraid of what others will think and even though I grew up in a mans world and I know some of the friends I grew up with will dis own me because of it, I don’t care.
I am going on my first date tomorrow night with a stunningly beautiful t-girl and can hardly wait. We have been texting and talking for a few weeks now and I already get that warm fuzzy feeling every time she text me or if we talk on the phone.
I never felt this way about any of the “real” women I was with the years. ( please and Trans women don’t be offended as I just don’t know how else to word it ). So if it feels right and feels good it must be good, right ?
But being as I am so new to this world I am very afraid of even being seen by strangers, let alone friends or family, in the company of her. And that is not fair to her, not at all. When I first met her it was on a t-girls date sight and I totally made it clear that I needed a completely “passable” t-girl in my life to accompany me on trips and dinners with my employers.. She assured me she is 100% passable and her pictures don’t lie, she is. She also thinks my inexperience is something to be valued and not taken for granted. I want my first to be special, with someone special. This girl has been in trans since 13 years of age and has a very supportive family, a very rare thing for T-Girls.
Anyways, I could go on and on. I really hope I fall in love with this girl and am able to no longer live in shame of my bisexuality.
I truly tip my hat to any T-Girl because you are truly an inspiration to me knowing just ho much courage it takes to come out.
J.S
On my myriad social networks, from the phenomenally popular Face-oogle-twit to the NSFW at a whorehouse (like Fetlife listed above) I always use my common-law–and now legal–name (Vallin SFAS to anyone who missed it). I am direct and adamant in my love, admiration, and attraction to transwomen. I am friends and lovers of many, and public in my sentiments. I am freely open to dating any transwomen with whom mutual desire is evident (You KNOW who you are. I’m in Decatur and Midtown ATL. Look me up!). If anyone has a problem with that, then YOU have a problem
I think it’s also good that a lot of men are reading the articles on this blog and it’s enlightening to see things from their perspective.
As a mother of a 23 year old son that is dating a trans women, I am doing my best to be accepting and understanding. I will be honest and say at first I didn’t understand any of this. I never knew anyone that was transgender and didn’t understand anything about this. It was after I met her and heard her story of her horrific life and how she’d been treated by her own parents, people she thought were her friends and strangers, that I realized in my heart I didn’t want to be one of those people. I strive to try to help undo some of terribleness that her life had become and to be a friend and ally. Being Roman Catholic people ask me how I can accept this. Catholics are called to love everyone. Period. Love as Jesus did, unconditionally. I wish that others would see that people are people regardless of anything else.
Janna your comment really made me think about how difficult it can be for someone to understand something they have never encountered or haven’t been taught about. We need to be educating one another at any chance we get so that potential intolerance can change to tolerance, and that to acceptance and inclusion. For those of us that do not understand something we need to be curious and question others from a place of love and open mindedness. No one is ‘normal’, most people will say they regularly feel misunderstood and I think we can all agree it’s a terrible feeling. Why are we choosing to place this feeling on one another when the option of doing the opposite is just as available. It seems so crazy that accepting someone who is different from ourselves is so hard for some people when the concept for universal love, acceptance, and happiness is so simple and attainable… Treat others how you want to be treated.
I think this is a wonderful article and really brings to light the situations that a lot of transwomen find themselves in. I think a lot of destructive thoughts for me comes from men’s biological evolution and therefore, ‘why would this great guy want to be with me, when he can be with a CIS woman and have children’.
Unfortunately one of the worst things for me is the fact that even if I do fall in love with a man (eventually, I presume I inevitably will) is that I would never be able to bare this man’s children, go through the pregnancy, scans, etc.
I think that Emma Watsons recent announcement at the UN Summit was incredibly powerful and something that concerns ALL women. Men are having to protect their sexualities constantly in this day and age if; they cry, they show too much affection/emotion, do too much housework, be loving fathers and have gay friends.
This is absolutely appalling because I am not one of those women who would hook up with a man until I know him well enough but even at that. At which point will society stop focusing so much on matters that they are not entitled any say of and matters that is simply none of their business.
If a man loves a woman, it’s his love. How dare anyone call into question a man’s sexuality simply because he is seen doing something that’s an ancient norm of today’s society. The man hasn’t changed anything about himself, he still plays his sports, hangs out with the same friends (which may be the cause of his anxiety in terms of dating a transwoman’, still has the same personality, political and religious beliefs, likes and dislikes. HE IS NO LESS OF A MAN FOR BEING WITH WHOM HE WANTS and I would not stand there and allow anyone to call into question a mans sexuality because of these things. It makes it harder for me to date any man because first and foremost, they want sex (it’s what men want initially), after establishing I have self-respect/morals and he isn’t getting to dub me one of his sexual conquests or his bootiecall, we move onto dating (although the first establishment is a minor occurrence, sometimes they decide dating me is not for them) but what puts me off is although this man is comfortable to date me in public, I fear that his sexuality may be called into question because it directly affects who I am as a person, a woman and it directly affects my man’s confidence in himself (I think).
I invite society to be the evolved animals science calls us to be, be more respectful, understanding and tolerant and understand that MY RELATIONSHIPS ARE NOT YOUR BUSINESS and if you make it your business then we have a problem. Challenge yourself to changing your perceptions of the norms and values. I’m sure you all have enough of your own problems to worry about rather than my femininity and my man’s masculinity.
let me start by saying I’ve always been a straight guy who has fallen in love with a girl who just happens to be trans. I knew she was when we first started dating. I only think of her as all woman to me but run into comments on a daily basis of her commenting on how ugly she feels or feels like she looks like a boy when in fact she is one of the most beautiful woman I have ever met. I always try to reassure her how beautiful she is. ‘m proud of her for who she is and I don’t care who thinks different. My love for her is unconditional and I hope one day to marry her and spend the rest of my life with her transgender or not.
Thanks so much for this article! I’m 53: I first met a trans woman while in graduate school, over 25 years ago. I just found her a lovely person. She told me, rather shyly, about herself on our first date. And it made no difference to me – she was just the woman I wanted to be with. We had a wonderful relationship, in every way. I have preferred trans women ever since, but I hate being called a fetishist, etc., because of this.
Janet, a site I found that has a lot of different information that can help to answer peoples questions about some of the lesser thought about aspects for trans women is: http://annierichards.com/
topics like lactation, normal breast development, gender reassignment surgeries, pregnancy, motherhood. to list just a few.
On the original post, I agree with you completely, there is a stigma attached to trans women, and to men that choose to be with them socially, when there should not be one. Oddly, there is no stigma for a woman to be seen socially with a trans woman, though the number of women that would be interested in an intimate relationship with a trans woman is much smaller than the number of men that are.
And I forgot one aspect… my point has always been that being a man who is attracted to trans women is PEANUTS compared to being a trans woman when it comes to adversity and shit! So show your loyalty and seriousness by acknowledging her – and trust me – it will set you free too, my man! Stand by your trans woman 100%. Be proud – dare to be different! She dares…
Your words are inspiring as I admit to be the lesser man by being bothered by public thought for my love of transgendered women. I questioned my sexuality because of my passion for these women for many years. I recognize this petty problem as being self destructing because this is not the way a ‘normal’ man is supposed to love, blah, blah, blah. I know I must resolve this self imposed shame if I ever want to be set free. Got a long road ahead because of no one to talk with. I respect the hell out of transgendered women as they don’t care about public opinion and made a really strong decision to be who they are.
I’m not the kind of guy who really worries too much about what my surroundings may think of me – and mostly they think well. I have enjoyed relationships with a number of transwomen for the last close to ten years, and it has neither been a secret nor a point of embarrasment AT ALL!
I do get the general gist of the article here, however, as a man BE A MAN! Don’t worry so much – I have always been as proud of my trans-friends/lovers as I have been of my cisgender friends/lovers. Maybe even more so, as I do not neglect the political aspect of being in a relationship with a trans-woman. And I admit to being a bit political…
I have friends (even transsexual friends, believe it or not) who have asked me to be less open about my what I consider honest and natural attraction to trans-women, as it may “hurt my social status” and make me lose clients… well, that is the risk I take and I take it with pride. And so far without the dire consequenses.
So to all you closetted men out there who as I find that special attraction to trans-women – go for it – and go for i OPENLY! You have nothing to be ashamed of – on the contrary! Be proud! Be bold! Be loyal – to your self and your transsexual girlfriend. NEVER keep her a secret! Love her, adore her – let her give you all the strength you need. She will do it!
Peace!
H
It was nice to read the article and this comment. Regarding your second comment though, I am careful not to compare the ways various groups are oppressed in a there more oppressed than me or I’m more oppressed than them fashion. All forms of oppression are harmful to society and propagate the continuance of it.
I’m a transgender female myself. I’ve grown to except myself over the years and know I’m just as human and worthy as any female. I’ve grown to learn the way men think both open and closed minded men and to each they own opinion. I’ve always thought I’d never find a man who would love and cherish me for who I am and the breed of female I happen to be. I’ve been dating a nice guy who happens to be straight but we fell in love and still almost a year in our relationship he questions his sexuality and mention the fact I have children. YES it hurts that I can’t provide that for the love of my life but he still continues to love on me, be there for me, shed tears over me. I know he loves me deeply by those actions. I can see myself spending the rest of my life with this man and never looking back. I just hope he wakes up FULLY and realize I’m here for him no matter what and god put us in each others lives for a reason. I enjoy seeing trans women in bliss with men who love and except them for them. Me and mine have a long journey ahead of us. I pray he becomes the man I know he can be in all aspects. Wonderful feedback I read and very nice article.
Seems in America people stick their noses where they really do not belong. In Japan we have 4 national pop stars who are trans women. We have a trans woman in parliament serving her second term. I am a trans woman and a test pilot. Probably the first trans woman test pilot. No one knows I am trans and I don’t feel the need to tell anyone. I am married and have been for the last 2 years. I am also half Japanese half Ethiopian. I think this article is great and I wish there were more articles like this. I believe lately there has been a lot of positive media around the world toward trans women which is encouraged. I wish the best for my trans sisters out in the open and in “stealth” and I wish the best for you Janet.
Great article and great site.
I met my girlfriend almost 3 years ago and I love her and hopefully we will get married in the future.
She told me that she is a trans woman on our 2nd date and yes I was suprised and no, it didn’t affect me more than a minute back then.
She is a woman and she always was, she only had to act like a male for a while in her life, until she could start being herself.
I’m glad she is with me now and I don’t care about people who can’t understand that women are women.
Its nice to hear the male perspective on topics like this because I have been dating my girlfriend for almost a year now. She is a transgender woman and she told me before I even met her in person but Im so glad I chose to get to know her as a person because at times society does make me feel like less of man because of who I’m dating even though I love my girlfriend with all my heart. Reading everyones comments on this topic especially the men really made me feel good and caused me to realize. I shouldn’t be ashamed of who I feel in love with but I am ashamed that I let society made me feel less of a man because of who I love. I lot of days when I hold my girlfriend in my arms I think to myself she is so beautiful physically and even more so her personality is one of a kind……and as far as transgender women being seen as less than human and subject to the delusional thought that because of what they were born as they dont deserve love or a genuine relationship. I think that is a bunch of bs and if anything I think in my case it is me who doesn’t deserve the unconditional, amazing love my girlfriend bestows upon me when I’m with her I can only hope that in the near future like the awe inspiring art she has inspired me to create. I become a man who is more than worthy of my girlfriends love.
I will never be able to become that man.
Janet, thank you for this inspirational and sensitive piece. I can’t find the words to express how glad I am that you are sharing your viewpoint and shedding light on this issue. The increased visibility of trans* issues like this, like name changes, etc. is definitely something our society needs these days. But standing up and speaking out like this is a phenomenal thing, and thank you so much for doing it with such grace and tact.
As a Trans-woman who is and has been dating the same Male for 7 years, I’m blessed. He see’s me as the woman I am, see’s me as beautiful though I strongly argue that (Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder) His attitude is… “Screw them” I’m with a female, I love her, She is beautiful and that is what matters. But saying that, his family does not know, but as his thoughts are on that, why tell them, does it matter? What matters is how he feels. Yes I am blessed to have him in my life. We plan on getting married as soon as I can afford my operation and keep our partnership/relation going for ever. He has been my rock to hold onto when I have needed it.
This article was right on target. I have been trying to help people understand just that in my own long-winded fashion. . NOBODY wants to be TV CD TG TS shemale ladyboy etc. Nobody wants to be one of those! Those are acronyms, medical diagnoses, and sex trade nomenclature. As Ms Janet Mock has so clearly, concisely, and accurately pointed out…” We are Women”. Awesome Ms Janet! We ARE women.
Respectfully & at your service,
Candace Suzanne…. Your Suzi
(Please join me on Facebbook)
if i am not a trans woman, how can i go about affirming the value of trans women in a way that does not drive their fetishization as trans women or an intersecting oppression (as woc, for example)? i’ve seen a lot of discussions on trans women in trans and queer spaces, and i want to stop decentering my needs because i don’t experience transmisogyny. however, i don’t want to fetishize or other trans women (or other people who are excluded and may experience transmisogyny, such as dmab nonbinary people). i consider my first duty to demand inclusion of trans women in women’s spaces and make sure i’m not constructing the Default Queer and/or Trans Person as DFAB.
You are amazing! Glad I found you and this!!!!
V
haven’t read all the comments… they’re wayyyy too long for me… so sorry if i’m repeating someone already
but
to me….a woman is a woman… the ‘trans’ needs not be there…. if a man… or woman… finds a woman attractive… starts chatting to her… and finds her mind attractive too… then whats the prob?
how do we even know who’s ‘trans’ or not… if i saw you (janet) walking down the street, i wouldn’t have had a clue… just would have thought you was one hot woman…. and thats as simple as it is… no idea why people feel the need to be concerned about other peoples love lifes!
whats the prob with a man, liking a woman?
Very well written. Extremely informative. I am a Caribbean woman, heterosexual/cisgendered/straight and I believe storytelling/sharing your story is so important. Janet you just humanized the trans community for me. Anytime I’ve encountered stories etc… it’s always been in a somewhat negative, confused or shameful light. I am not a particularly judgemental person but I have always thought in order for a man to truly be with a trans woman he must deep down have homosexual tendencies. Granted, you are extremely beautiful and “passable” so that certainly helps in terms of completely identifying you as a woman. I really never thought about it because as I said trans people are often represented as larger than life caricatures in the media (which is my only exposure). However, as a human being, regardless of gender, the trans community should feel safe and worthy of love, affection and desire. You aren’t somehow demoted to less than human when transitioning so why should you be made to feel that way? I cannot imagine the difficult task of finding an exceptional man to understand this but one of the commenters made an interesting point , her fiance stated that her body is just the surface and regardless of her gender he loves her soul, whether she chose to fully transition, stay the same etc… I still don’t totally understand and I’m sure I really never will but this did shed light.
I identify as pansexual as well, but for a long time I identified as a lesbian. As a teen, I was ignorant about trans experience. I didn’t understand how anyone “could choose to change their gender.” As I got older, I met people who helped me shed that ignorance and open my mind. I went on a date with someone who was genderqueer back in 2009. Their gender made no difference to me, I liked them for who them was. It was then, I realized that gender was no longer such a defining factor in terms of dating for me. I’ve dated and had crushes on a few trans people. I’m glad you wrote this piece because people need to be made aware that shaming is harmful and unacceptable. It’s something I’ve experienced as a woman with a disability. Trans women are women and they are beautiful! If I was dating a trans woman, I wouldn’t let anyone shame either one of us. Women are women, love is love.
I was moved by this article for three main reasons.
One is my own journey through gender identity. I was born a female but was often confused for a boy when I was young (because I liked my hair short and my clothes comfortable and practical for sports, and I preferred playing sports/video games/Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh! cards/collecting action figures and comic books to traditional “girlish” pursuits such as dolls, dress-up, playing “house”, etc.). My first day of kindergarten I decided I had to start growing my hair, because I walked into the girls’ bathroom and all the girls ran out screaming “THERE’S A BOY IN HERE!!!”–and my mother had to come to the school to confirm that yes, I was her daughter, I was not lying. Because I would never wear dresses (which were impossible to play soccer in, and soccer was my life) I decided growing out my hair (which I could at least tie back) was the best way to ensure people knew I was a girl. I was outed as a lesbian (although I now identify as queer, because I’ve developed some interest in men and am engaged to a guy) by accident when I was 11, and because I already received some flak over being shy, academics-oriented, athletic, and boyish-looking, being lesbian was the last nail in my coffin that branded me as a social outcast. Throughout my teenage years, I was ashamed to be seen around girls (because I felt horrible that I would never be able to fit in or be accepted by them, as one of them) and terrified to be seen by guys (because I was lesbian, people often floated rumors that I’d hit on someone’s girlfriend or tried to grope a girl or been eying up a girl in the locker room, although really none of it was true–but nobody bothers to fact-check, they just said “You wanna be a guy? Well, we’ll treat you like one–and if you hit on our girlfriends, beat the s*** out of you same as we would any guy!”). As such (because new lies came out every day) I was always running and hiding, I could never feel right living in the open. I considered the possibility that I was actually a boy trapped in a girl’s body, and lived for a while as a boy (moved to another state for a year and introduced myself there to everyone as a young man named Shalom). In the end, I didn’t feel right living as a man either. I moved back to NYC (where I had lived prior) a year later. That was where I encountered “Aang”, an old friend of mine–when I’d known Aang before, she was a girl named Angela whom I’d dated for about a month. Aang taught me about his new identity as an agender human. I began learning about third-gender identities (agender, bigender, genderfluid, etc.) and became comfortable living as a genderfluid human. In certain circumstances I am much more masculine and in others I can be more feminine–but I don’t restrict myself with either identity. I know what it’s like to be treated like I’m second-rate because I wasn’t a “proper girl” or a “real man”–and as such I felt the emotions in this post deeply.
Another reason is that I have seen several friends through their transitions. One of them is my friend, Brianna. I had a friend who we all knew as “Joey”. He was a soft-spoken, kind-hearted, gentle young man who we all knew and loved. He had soft blond hair down to his collar that all the girls would joke made them feel bad about their own, and the girls would always ask him what skincare products he used because he had perfect skin. I noticed he seemed like he was nervous and depressed one day and took him aside to talk to him, and asked him what was bothering him. He looked me in the eye and said, “I’m not a man–I’m really a transgender woman. I’ve been working on starting the transition on my own, but I saw my parents recently and tried to speak to them about it…it was ugly.” I was silent for a moment, then said, “I didn’t know you were transitioning. Is there a name you’d like us to start using for you?” She smiled at me and said, “It’s Brianna.” And I smiled and said, “Well, Brianna, J-mo and the rest have been begging to do your hair for months, and your makeup too…do you think you’d be up for letting them if they knew about this?” And she said, “We’ll see, I don’t know if they’d be that good at it…but how do I talk to them [our friends] about it?” I suggested that we just lay it on the line and if they had any questions, encourage them to ask. That wound up working quite well. It was strange at first for her, but she’s much happier now that she’s fully transitioned. She’s found a boyfriend who is not afraid of those stigmas, and they are now cohabiting–and I’m pretty sure he’s planning to propose to her. He loves her for who she is, and sure, his basketball buddies weren’t so open-minded–but he always defended her and supported her through everything with her family, school, work…I call the two of them extremely lucky. Bri, because she found such an amazing, open-hearted, brave, loving man–and her boyfriend because dude, he’s living with my awesome and beautiful friend, and he treats her well enough that he will never risk running into some bad luck with my fists.
The last main one is that I am living with my fiance, a cisgendered heterosexual male, and I have spoken to him openly about my feelings about my gender and sexual identity and a lot of the pain that I went through related to it (my own insecurity, harassment and abuse from people who were not understanding of it, a violent hate crime when I was in my early teens, failed relationships, being estranged from family members who refused to accept my identity, etc.). He’s been through his own piles of shit, and we’ve talked about his stuff too, but a few months ago, we were talking one night and I told him that sometimes I still feel inadequate as a person because of how people in my family–and society as a whole–treat me in relation to my gender and sexual identity. He told me something that I didn’t know–when we first started dating, old friends of his who saw us walking around together, going on dates, kissing, etc. were confused because they thought I was a guy and they’d never pinned him for being gay. He didn’t correct them, just let them think what they wanted, and figure it out (and feel like idiots) when they were introduced to me later and heard my voice (although I have a somewhat deep voice for a girl, my voice is unmistakably female). He told me he didn’t even think much of it, because he didn’t care. In our religion there is a belief in souls that are reincarnated multiple times–and he believed my soul was a man and his was a woman. He also said, “If you wanted to go through gender reassignment, I wouldn’t care–I’d still love you, you’d be the man I love. If you wanted to start being more feminine for some reason, I wouldn’t care–I’d still love you, you’d be the woman I love. I don’t care what you are on the surface, or what your body says–your physical body is just a shell, what you are on the inside…that can’t be touched by anything physical. And that’s what I was drawn to. I love you, and nothing physical could change that.” When he said that, I broke down crying–I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. People had told me before “It’s your choice, do what you want.” People had pushed me to transition fully, or to be more girlish. Nobody had ever said to me what he did–“I don’t care what you are on the surface, or what your body says…I love you, and nothing physical could change that.” That was the first time in my life I had ever felt truly and completely 100% happy with myself. I wish every transgendered man or woman in the world had someone like him, who loves the inside and is happy with what is brought to the outside and supportive no matter what. And who doesn’t care what anyone else says about it.
The article addressed something that I felt very personally and that I know as a very real issue. Parts of the article made me sad, others made me feel a glimmer of hope. But throughout I can honestly say I was extremely moved.
Today we live in a commercial age, which makes us act and think in a certain way. But nobody teaches us that we ourselves who have the last and first word to choose what we want. At the moment we stop thinking about others and really see what we are as human beings, then we can stop so much garbage. I am a trans woman and I’m proud to be and definitely the value that I have as a person is unique and unsurpassed. Today I decide how I want to live and do it with dignity and respect, and decide what kind of woman you want to be. A KISS FROM MEXICO
I want to begin by saying that this may come across as judgmental or something like that. But believe me when I say that I am not writing this out of any sort of malice or disrespect; I am writing because I am honestly curious; I know myself to be ignorant and genuinely want to understand better.
So I am speaking as a cis-gendered, heterosexual female. I was always brought up to judge people on their character, not based on anything like gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. etc. I truly am not just trying to sound pc here. Some of my best friends are gay, and I had this fascinating conversation about European history with a trans-woman I met once. My college has a comparatively large trans community – one of whom was the best chemistry TA EVER! and a trans-man who I will not deny, I found quite attractive. I did not pursue him because, well, I do not pursue ANYBODY. Because I’m a chump like that. Seriously. I’m WAY too shy for my own good. It’s pretty horrible.
All of that aside. I am very curious about the whole gender issue… I get really confused. I mean, I have never questioned my own gender, but I honestly believe that if I were born with man parts, I would be perfectly content living as a guy. I just am not sufficiently motivated to do so. Anyway, what I’m trying to get at is this: what does it mean to “feel like a woman” or “be a woman” born as a biological male? If it doesn’t matter who does what jobs or takes on which societal roles and responsibilities, why does gender matter at all? Thus, why would a person feel the need to change their gender? I hate cooking, I hate cleaning, and I love math and physics. I don’t want kids. The only particularly “girl” thing about me is that I enjoy showing off my boobs and/or doing my hair/makeup from time to time. But not very frequently. I mean, ok, I don’t like using the word woman at all. Maybe it’s the biologist in me, but I prefer the term “female.” From my perspective, the box I check on government forms, or on facebook, is a biological fact – not a statement about who I am as a person.
I concede that, coming from the out-group in this case, I can try to understand but I will probably never fully comprehend. But I wonder if we lived in a world where mothers encouraged their daughters to play football if they want to… to make model airplanes… to play with those little green army men… Or in converse, if more dads encouraged their son to dance ballet, write poetry, do whatever it is society tells girls to do… I wonder if we lived in that world, if maybe there would be fewer people who felt the need to surgically alter their physically manifested sex? (I want to be a surgeon when I finish med school, so it’s not like I’m against surgery on principle).
I apologize if this has offended anyone – I cannot stress enough that this was not meant as an attack on any group or individual. I am a scientist. I get intellectually curious about things that I do not fully understand.
Thank you, and have a lovely day.
Lee,
From how it has been described to me by many close transgender friends of mine, many trans people not only experience dysphoria due to societal norms based on gender, they experience a dysphoria about their bodies as well. Their mental “body map” (there is a term for it but it escapes me now) that tells them what parts of their body should be where doesn’t match the actual physicality of their body. So a transwoman isn’t just a male-bodied person who feels behaviorally/mentally they are a woman, they are a person who’s “body map” tells them when they look at their chest, they should have breasts or that when they look at their genitals there should be a vagina and not a penis. Also, there are many different levels of how a person who identifies as transgender wishes to change their body. Some only choose to take hormones and don’t wish to change their bodies surgically, others opt for surgery without hormones, and still others present themselves as their preferred gender through wardrobe/behavior. It is all acceptable and completely up to the individual. I went into a lot more detail there, but as far as your question goes, that at least how I understand it is why many desire a surgery option.
You are not alone in your quest for information! Thank you for your sincere efforts. May we ALL learn from this comment section.
I am a trans man. I’m going to take a shot at answering your question.
My parents didn’t force or even really push me to be “girly” as a child; I chose swimming classes over ballet, didn’t wear dresses most of the time, and played with toy cars and trucks as much as I played with dolls or stuffed animals. When playing pretend with my friends, I was the dad when we played house and the prince when we played princesses. It didn’t seem significant to me then, and I didn’t object to being considered a tomboy.
Just before puberty and when puberty began was when it started being problematic for me. I knew that I didn’t really feel like a girl, but since I had no awareness of the concept of being transgender and no idea that this wasn’t the way most girls felt, I assumed that this was normal. I thought that as puberty progressed, I’d start feeling like a girl. I looked forward to it, because even though I wasn’t made to act or dress girly, I still felt a subtle discord and discomfort with the idea of myself and my body, and I had a vague awareness that this had to do with my gender. However, instead of feeling more comfortable as my body shape altered and I grew breasts, I felt steadily less comfortable. It felt wrong, and I didn’t know why or even really how.
I’ve tried various approaches to dealing with my gender over the course of my life. I’ve tried dressing and acting in a more feminine way, and I’ve tried dressing and acting as an androgynous or masculine woman. It still doesn’t feel right, even all the way over on the butch end of the spectrum. I’ve never felt good about calling myself a woman or being referred to as “she.” The discomfort with my body has grown slowly worse as I’ve gotten older. I couldn’t tell you why, but that’s how it is.
The best metaphor I’ve come up with for the way my body dysphoria feels is this:
Imagine that you’re wearing a pair of pants one size too small. Imagine the way the pants pinch your waist, bind your thighs, and ride up at your ankles. It’s a relatively minor discomfort, and i probably doesn’t look too bad. If you don’t have another pair of pants to wear, you can deal with it. It’s workable, even if you’re not really comfortable.
Most of the time, as you go about your day wearing the wrong size pants, you’ll be able to ignore how it feels. You’ve got other things to think about, more important stuff to deal with. But the discomfort is always quietly there as background noise. If you have a minute in which you don’t have anything else to do, your discomfort with the badly-fitting pants might come back up to the top of your mind, and you’ll think about how you’d really rather have a pair of pants that fits you and wish you were home so you could change.
Now — take that feeling that you’re imagining, and imagine that instead of your pants not fitting, it’s your body that doesn’t fit. It’s a mental feeling instead of a physical one, but at least in my case, it’s a similar “sensation.” My body is the wrong shape, and I am not comfortable in it. I don’t like to look at it or be aware of it, and I’d rather change it so it fits my internal experience of how I should feel.
This isn’t necessarily representative of all trans people’s experience, but I hope it helps you understand a little better as to why I can’t just be a masculine woman, why instead I need to be a trans man.
Thank you for this excellent article. I’m an openly bisexual male who is attracted to and has dated trans women. There have been several times over the years where I’ve felt stigmatized for this. Along with all the issues I’ve run into from people of various orientations and genders disliking that I’m bisexual, I’ve also had a few negative encounters with trans women. There have been times when I’ve been turned down for dates by trans women specifically because they knew I was attracted to trans women. I’ve always found this odd, because like you said, it made me feel like there was something wrong with me for liking them. I’ve been called a “chaser” and found it very upsetting since the term disparages what I believe are legitimate feelings of attraction. I try not to be too negative about these experiences since I know not everyone shares those opinions, but it still hurts when it happens.
I keep seeing “cis” in the article and comments. Could someone please explain what the term cis stands for? Is it an acronym? I UNDERSTAND what it means, that is obvious when you read the article and comments. I just want to know what it STANDS FOR please. Thanks
“cis” is short for “cisgender”. :)
In organic chemistry, if the two biggest “groups” of the molecule are on the same side of the molecule it is a “cis-oriented molecule.” If the two biggest groups are on opposite sides of the molecule, it is a “trans-oriented molecule.” So, cis-gender is saying that a person’s gender identity is on the “same side” of the gender binary as their biological sex, and trans-gender is saying that a person’s gender identity is on the opposite side of the gender binary as their biological sex.
I am a 67 year old transwoman (11 years post-op) and a lesbian. One thing that I have found is that lesbians of my generation will have nothing to do with transwomen; this was true in Seattle, and it has proven to be true here, in San Francisco. This creates a reversal of an old adage; when one door opens, another door closes. What makes this so frustrating is knowing that all of the intimacy in my life was wasted by having been in the wrong gender role. At least I have a library card.
I am a woman, I was born with a penis but am entirely female. I have recently evaluated my life, my likes and dislikes and realized at the very least, I was bisexual, more than likely pan. There was no shame to this admission, only a sense of self satisfaction that I had come to know myself better.
I found myself attracted to a man, he is bright, funny, intelligent and just a loving and strong soul. He gives me a feeling of security when I am with him. And the first time we were attracted to each other, he kissed me, fully, not a peck, but a warm full kiss. I had opened up to him that I was different before we even started talking, as I do to anyone who appears interested in me in a romantic or sexual manner.
Unusual ? Well, he is a male, born that way, identifies that way, and yet, he felt no shame in placing a french kiss on me in public, directly in view of the table I was sitting at and the rest of the guests.
And to my knowledge, neither one of us has any feelings of shame over that one, although I have been known to blush while talking about it. It was my first french kiss with a man, and it was very public. And incredibly special.
Some may call me a trans woman (I do have Gender Dysphoria), but it seems the only thing I see in the mirror any longer is a woman, actually she resembles my mother quite a bit. I can associate in a public setting the way I feel, as a beautiful, mature woman out with an attractive mature man. No tricks, no deception, just human emotions.
Beautiful essay and I completely agree with everything you wrote.
Awesome article Janet!
I self-identify as pansexual, so I am open to dating any consenting adults where we have enough common ground and there is some chemistry. I don’t worry about how they self-identify their personal sexual orientation, or gender identity as long as they understand they are dating a woman and are clear on that. (i.e. a male (cis or trans) who self-identifies as bisexual of course will still be bisexual, as I will still be pansexual, but we would be in a straight relationship).
I tend to mostly date straight identified men, but have also dated lesbian identified women. Of those lesbian women, two were cis and two were trans.
We’ve seen so many breakthroughs in our understanding of science, medicine, genetics, and psychiatry in recent years/months, which drastically alter the old “XX” and “XY” theories espoused in those 7th grade Health classes back in 1966. Suffice to say we understand that things occurring in the brain aren’t just “fluff”. We don’t choose to be a certain sexual orientation or gender identity mid-afternoon on a boring Tuesday because it sounds like more fun than working. Our brains are neuro-biological, physical, natal, organic, natural-born, real, true. we understand that there are more than just “XX” and “XY”, that those can indeed change, that they are far less important to our in utero development than other processes talking place during our gestation. More people will meet my brain during my lifetime than will meet my genitalia, no matter what they are.
How one self identifies and how open or stealth one is, is a vastly personal decision. I myself am quite open to many. I am just the “girl next door” to many others. While I choose to be clear and open on the mainstream dating sites where I have my profiles, I do so not out of any feelings of obligation to “come clean” to prospective dates who may have an issue with my being of transsexual history. I firmly believe if someone has an issue with dating a trans* person, then it is THEIR responsibility to ask every single prospective date if they are trans*. I am clear up front simply because I do not wish to waste my time dealing with somebody who may freak out on me later on. I don’t need to be bothered with their baggage and psychiatric issues and fears over their own sexuality. I prefer to educate rather than obfuscate, but I am not giving everyone I meet a free course in Trans* 101. Also I have no desire whatsoever to date someone who doesn’t believe I exist or finds the thought of dating me undesirable.
With the bio-medical breakthroughs we are seeing on the horizon, it will not be long before trans* kids can live their lives right along with their cis peers and as adults conceive children, carry them in utero, birth them, (and of course nurse them as they can now). Remember, Lili Elbe, the first (that I know of) trans woman to undergo SRS/GCS did have a uterus and ovaries implanted, but being the late 1920’s-early 1930’s, there were no drugs to prevent organ rejection.
Let us hope we can move forward, educating as we go and dispelling the hatred, misinformation, and bigotry we encounter simply for not fitting someone else’s cookie-cutter mold.
Just my 2¢, Other’s mileage may vary.
Hello,
Thank you sooooooooo much for being the advocate you are (and to other trans-advocates who read comments- thank you to you all as well). I can tell you that reading this, and seeing you on the MHP Show a few months ago, and seeing that there is an ever so slight push forward in the advancement of the trans-community- I just want to thank and applaud you for so effectively putting to words something that much of society needs to become more aware of. Deciding to live out loud- by just being yourself instead of who society says you are supposed to be. Trans-people are NOT offensive, or shameful, and literally every word you wrote is what I- myself- will refer to as gospel, because it is truth handed down from above (for the believe), and just “truth” for the non-believers. There is no place in society for shaming someone for living their life- a trans-person- and it is another thing (of around equal offense) of shaming someone who is interested the trans-individual. Again, as you indicated, the psychological effect that is and will be just completely frightful… Hey, how about “No ‘T’ Left Behind”??? We can’t let the trans-community be left behind.
EVERYTHING you said truly lifted my spirits, because as a trans-loving person, the things you wrote are things I think about driving to work, in the grocery story- what we “young-folk” call, ‘on the regular’. These are some of the many important topics that need to be brought to the table. So, THANK YOU, for doing what you do and will continue to do for our community!
Sincerely,
Benji (PSL, FL)
Please forgive me in advance if I offend anyone.
I am an admirer. Mr.Cee shouldn’t have warranted all this negative hype because he was in the car with a cross dresser. Necessary topics are stumbling to the forefront but where do we go from here?
No one ever once said Transgender women don’t deserve anything. Its just being with them in secret is convenient. They eagerly make themselves overly available and extremely easy to get with, if I can always easily access what I want there is no need to bother myself with a relationship, especially not a complicated questionable one. You (Janet) portray yourself in a presentable way. Many trans women dress in such a provocative way. I don’t want to be seen with that. All men appreciate an attractive woman but its very difficult to be with some one trying to model their style after a half naked hip hop video vixen or TV personality like the Kardashians.
The showiness makes people scrutinize. That inspection usually makes them notice everything about who I may be with including they were born male. Its not worth it! The pasts as an escort (as most T girls have) may be the cause of not understanding conservative or appropriate dressing, or speech. Whores are fun! But few men want to take on being with one. As a corporate professional with high ranking position in a lucrative but conservative business, and a pretty nice lifestyle I cant have some one using LGBT & trans street trick style colloquialisms and slang at my office parties and dinner with other couples. How do Transgender women get along with cis women? They usually don’t. They get paranoid that every one is after them. They want to make a scene, and fight. Just another layer of issues and drama, makes another reason I handle me liking Tgirls by not dealing with them publicly. The problem usually isnt the public only. Its the individual.
If I want to be with a woman, and take her out, she has to get along with others. My date’s appearance and how she carries herself is a reflection of me. If some one notices, so what?! Or has a question – so what? This happens to all types of race groups and foreigners. I would never let anything happen to some one I care for. Especially not in front of me. There is no need to get into a brawl. When the thought of possibly dating a lovely Trans girl I met came up I had to take a hard look not so much how I will judged for being with her.But what type of person is she?
When the question or topic of proper title or gender comes up, all the Trans women I know are ready to go in Mike Tyson style – bite some one in the ear and punch them in the face. I cant be with somebody like that in public, This wild stuff outside of the bedroom is too much to deal with. You have to consider the lifestyle and career of some one before you expect to be taken into acceptance. There is so much vocabulary & terms that you girls prefer on an individual basis. I saw Isis King politely correct Howard Stern on his show. If Trans women are calling out society and wanting to be seen then come out into society like any one else. That would make dating one of you easier.
During enjoying the company of trans women I also saw that they need to expand themselves because only they are in charge of their visibility. The ones I’ve encountered spent their days working with other trans sex workers or gay men, (their small community of associates). This leaves them ill prepared for blending, and having friendships other than what they’re used to. Using these words that familiar only gay circles. Thats not acceptable outside that circle. Crossover into the real world more often. The only way admirers can access a trans women is online.
Trans women are so critical of society not accepting them but when is the last time you saw a trans girl out riding a citi-bike, playing tennis, hiking,or PARTICIPATING in normalcy? Ive flirted with some really sexy Trans women in chat rooms, or facebook. THEY NEVER HAVE A JOB or anything to discuss or offer besides sex. They all claim to be models. While that is something of great use for a backpage advertisement. If you put their photo in Google search, that is all that comes up. Hey girls! You’re not Carmen Carrera, you cant go around trying to convince people you’re a transgender model and TV personality but no one ever saw or heard of you. If the only time anyone sees trans women is on youtube, or Jerry Springer people may be curious if they ever face one. Initially America wasn’t accepting of African Americans but they did sit ins. If black, gays, and handi apped can get employment and function in society why cant Trans women? Ive had girls tell me they are very comfortable and accustomed to the easy and fast money of escorting. They don’t want jobs! They want money! Do you think a Trans girl wants to flip burgers or work in foot locker? Or work in corporate? You cant get a career without education. It will be difficult to balance paying for surgical procedures while attending classes but its doable. The schools are not discriminating. Most trans women don’t want to go to school though, they want to be the next pop icon star or celebrity figure.
Trans women are calling upon society for more openness but they’ve gotta meet us half way.
WTF? Maybe we can just edit this comment into non-existence rather than me parsing out the 301 transphobic illogical claims the author is trying to make?
Ok, I do not like much of what you have to say however, I do know in some cases you are correct. The point that I must address, is on JOBS! Trans women face discrimination that you can not even imagine. I am a well educated, skilled person who served 20 years in the US Navy, retiring in 1995. I landed a job as an IT Manager in the corporate world and worked for 9 years, leaving that job in 2004 as the CIO (Chief Information Office) , holding a seat on the board of Directors. Making sure that I would give plenty of time for the company to replace me, I gave 6 months notice, unheard of in today’s job market. I took a year off for my transition, moved to a new state, then started working contract jobs to build up job history so that maybe I could have enough local history so I would not get outed when I started looking for a full time job…. I wanted to show that I was still as reliable and skilled as I was before transition, when the questions about gender came up in the background checks that I knew would be part of getting a job in IT. I used a “Head Hunter” to help me get in to the Corporate world here in the Midwest. I live in the Northwest Arkansas area where the worlds largest retailer has it’s home office, along with the worlds largest Protein Provider company and several of the largest Trucking companies home bases. Not to mention that every large information Technology company in the US has “Field Service Offices” and “Call Centers” dedicated to these large companies. I had made sure that I had taken contract jobs with these IT companies servicing the large retail company and the large protein company , making sure that I had taken leadership jobs, installing equipment and upgrading systems. Jobs that would require that background checks would be done because of the high level of network security and administration privileges required to be issued to me to allow me to work inside data centers and requiring me to have the “Keys to the Kingdom” so to speak.. I had made myself well known enough and my skills were respected enough that I was requested by the customer to run jobs for companies like Dell and HP, Over the next 3 years, I interviewed for many jobs and kept working as a contractor for the IT companies… I would make it to the point where it was necessary that I “Inform” them of my past… after that point the Job Requirement would go away or it would be filled from within… Even with companies that had “Gender Identity ” protection in the corporate “Non Discrimination” statements, this type of thing happened. No matter what the company says, people still make the choices and people still have their own feelings and prejudices. I finally after 4 years, gave up and started my own company servicing consumer computers and providing services to small business. With the skill set I had and the years of job history , I could not get more than a contract job, with a temp service. So your comments on JOBS and trans women cause me to believe that you are just as prejudiced as any of the others…. Where I grew up, we would have called you a “Dixiecrat” , If you do not now what the means, A Dixiecrat is someone who will have clandestine sex with a black woman or man but they would never , sit by one on the bus or eat with one in a restaurant and for sure you would not be caught paying beside one in church. So while some of my sisters may act like sex workers or seek men to make them feel like the women they are, it is as much the fault of men like you that they are held down and told they are not worth taking a risk for…. After why would a man like you take a risk because, you can get what you want in a back ally without anyone finding out…. Oh wait that is what Janet’s post was about.
It seems like you’re confusing cause and effect here. A sad majority of the time, transwomen – and transmen for that matter – get a lot of negative pushback from “mainstream” society, face fairly extreme difficulties in finding employment, deal with all kinds of stigmas and prejudice, etc. So I would not be surprised in the least if many of them were more at home with “fringe” culture (as it’s more likely to accept them and not shame them), nor by the fact that many transwomen go into sex work or other socially unacceptable professions, because when you’re desperate, you’ll make ends meet however you can.
Acting like that’s the reason why there’s a stigma attached to transwomen, rather than understanding that that’s a CONSEQUENCE of such a stigma, is ignorant and unfair.
But I think where you really lost me – and where any woman, trans or cis, should be seeing red flags – is the line “if I can always easily access what I want there is no need to bother myself with a relationship”.
So ok, if you can get the sex you crave, why SHOULD you bother with a relationship?
Well, because to any man worthy of mine or any other woman’s respect, a relationship means so much more than JUST sex. Trust, companionship, loyalty, mutual help, an activity partner, someone to laugh with, someone to bring you chicken soup when you’re sick and make fun of really bad movies with you. Someone who forwards you that meme they found at reddit that pokes gentle fun at your favorite hobby, and they knew you’d get the joke and laugh. Someone who picks up your favorite soda at the store because she noticed you’re almost out. Someone who’ll listen patiently while you explain that super cool thing you did in your favorite video game this afternoon. Someone who can argue passionately with you about a topic you both care about, and yet at the end you both feel enlightened rather than angry. Someone who’ll tell you, “I’m having a bad day, and the only thing that can make it better is your arms wrapped around me.”
Love.
And relationships don’t revolve around gender issues. A transwoman and a ciswoman are equally capable of having that closeness, that affection and trust. If you can’t see that – if you see transwomen as good for sex but nothing else, if you ONLY notice the transwomen who fit into your preconceived stereotypes, if you look at those stereotypes and never take a moment to wonder why and how a woman might find herself in those situations or with those mindsets… well, it says a lot more about you than it says about transwomen.
And it doesn’t say anything good.
Panther – Thank you for your frank remarks. After reading them, I’m moved to ask you the following: What if a transgender woman (a) doesn’t dress “provocatively”, (b) gets along with others including other women, (c) does not bring more “drama” than the average person, (d) does not talk using a lot of “street” colloquialisms, yet IS obviously transgender? How would you feel publicly dating such a person?
As Janet Mock wrote, “If a man dares to be seen with a trans woman, he will likely lose social capital so he must adamantly deny, vehemently demean, trash and/or exterminate the woman in question. He must do this to maintain his standing in our patriarchal society. For a man to be associated with a trans women, in effect, is to say that he is no longer a ‘real’ man (as if such a thing exists) because he sleeps with ‘fake’ women (as if such a thing exists).”
I will digress a little here to note that blaming “patriarchal society” for this circumstance does not quite add up. Let’s say for the sake of argument that society is matriarchal and that women have more power than men. In such a society, those cisgendered women who like it that way and want to preserve their gender privilege may well tend to view transwomen with hostility, seeing them as “social climbers” seeking to enter a higher status gender than the one into which they were physically born.
Although I haven’t seen many hard and fast numbers, the data I’ve seen as well as my own personal observations suggest that there are more transwomen than transmen out there. Does the apparent fact that more people are trying to become female than are trying to become male tell us anything about the nature of society? If so, what does it tell us?
That issue aside however, I believe there is much truth in Janet’s overall observation. The threat to a cisgender man (or woman, for that matter) of losing “social capital” over being publicly associated with a transwoman in a romantic context is I think a real one that exists as a potent consideration apart from any of the behavioral manners or sartorial choices of individual t-girls. Your comment seems to come close to tackling this key and awkward issue, but never really quite does so.
I’m not saying your other concerns are invalid, nor is it necessarily invalid to consider one’s social standing when deciding whom to date — although persons with lots of “social capital” should perhaps be aware of the degree to which the status they enjoy is based upon societal bigotry towards various other persons, in relation to whom their own standing is thereby increased, and with this in mind, may wish to consider relinquishing a little of their social capital so that others who are less respected by society may have a little more of it. After all, there aren’t (nor should there be) any taxes on social capital, or on looks, or on desirability, which creates I think something of a moral obligation for those who are blessed in one or more of these regards to wield their social power conscientiously and with kindness.
Anyway, to come to my main point: If we acknowledge that the “social capital” issue is real in regard to transwomen, and acknowledge that it is a social injustice (just as all discrimination on the basis of looks which are beyond an individual’s ready control is an injustice, regardless of how much or how little can be done about this injustice in the bigger picture), then I think we will if we are honest acknowledge that it is unfair and a little disingenuous to act as if it is only their individual choices or personalities which make us think twice about being seen with them in public.
I would first like to say… we can agree to disagree, Panther. I am transgender woman with two college degrees. I work a full-time job and I am still debating on if I am going to graduate school or not. I do understand what you are saying, however it works both ways. Regardless, if the persons are trans or not men have a tendency pick the women that display themselves in negative manner. So… let’s be real for just one second. Men are notorious for cheating on their wives and being very deceiving to woman to get themselves off! It is hard for you men to remain or stay monogamist. You have from the beginning of time always wanted the images that look the best to you. Now wonder why you keep meeting trash! You want to date a real transgender woman then stopping looking at the outer and focus on the inner. Men always pass me by, never realizing I am trans and I am single. I do care myself as woman and still not one man has approached me about something serious! So now you just met another one classy, educated, and real transwoman. We are all not the same, now say something “Panther”. Oh yes, I am extremely beautiful just to let you know!
Woah! I am a transsexual woman, and nothing you have said there matches my description. I am in a committed loving relationship, my male partner is open to everyone about everything. I do not just hang out with Trans and gay men, and I have cis gendered women friends(we get along really well). I get out and do things like everyone else, like go to just ordinary bars, shop, do a bit of gardening, go for bush walks, swim, go movies, play mini putt many other things. I do not think i am a super model or think i am famous, and never try to be either. I am not easy, I am actually the opposite. It seems here you are really just making excuses for hiding in a closet.
Maybe if you stopped using sex sites etc to meet one of us, or actually offer to take one on a REAL date, then you may actually find we are opposite to what you have taught yourself to believe. A man like you is one I have always stayed away from, as I am not a sexual object, I am a woman with a heart.
I forgot to mention also, we are set to be married, her in New Zealand, so you should reconsider your entire comment.
I agree with this, Panther.
I recently flew to KL to meet and go out with a Tg girl. She came to the hotel that was staying at and she was stunning right from the first glance. She was tall, pretty and with shorts on she had legs that went on forever. We we out during my stay there and everytime we went out she dressed in a way that shouted ” look at me, I’m TG” Consequently, she would get lewed comments from men and she was like a centre of attention. I did not mind at all but she said that she did not out much because of the attention that she got and I thought ….duh !!!!
She was not a sex worker, had a job, and was great company to be with.
On that trip I met my tg girlfriend and she is lovely. She dresses conservatively, wears and can get away with little make up, and not once did anyone make remarks to her. She takes my arm and walks at my side and I am so very proud being with her. We had fantastic fun doing the touristy things and got on so very well, BUT she does not have a job or hobbies so at times we are stuck for chat topics.
Ilove that girl. She is getting more interested in things other than sex as I spend time with her . Part of her not having other interests is her environment. Also, there is a huge stigma around hiring TG girls, perhaps the status in life thing, but she has no luck getting support in her local neighbourhood.
The longer that I spend with her the more that I see her change, gain confidence and I am sure that we will be good together for years to come.
WOW! I am so fortunate that the Transfolk I know don’t know YOU. My last comment to a friend who is transitioning was, “I am so glad to see you. You seem like yourself. You didn’t before.” SHE was an angry, difficult individual before. Now, she is calm and comfortable (even though I won’t be makeup shopping with her anytime soon!)
I am even more glad that the young people I know who desire to transition probably won’t read your comment. You live in a sick community of self-centered individuals. Glen Beck would love you, if he had the guts.
That, we are not real women deserving real *anything* is pretty much exactly the message that they (they being the media in these cases) are purposefully and deliberately trying to convey. Yes. That is what they think- and if you ask them- I bet they’ll not hesitate to agree. It’s not a side-effect argument we need to deduce- its their major point: we are not real women in the eyes of straight society. This is their base assumption and one that is so obvious to them that they don’t need to say it specifically any more than they need to spell out that murder is bad or water is wet. If you are seen with a Trans woman- you’re gay/queer/deviant/perverted- like- *definitionally* because *definitionally* to straight society we are not women. That is slowly changing, and I have tremendous hope! But right now- at this moment in history- this is still self-evident. Yes- they think we’re not real women and we’re certainly mot real men- and therefor we’re not deserving of basically anything.
This is not always true Joan. We are out here.
Janet,
Wonderful article and you’re absolutely right that the stigma and shame about dating needs to be dealt with. There seems to be something more going on here though. I’m not really into hip-hop and had no idea who DJ Mister Cee was until reading some of the links you had attached. The scandal seems to have been created by the person DJ Mister Cee was with than Mr Cee himself. I watched the attached video and there seemed to be a joy in “outing” DJ Mister Cee which created this current situation. I think the apology DJ Mister Cee gave was appropriate and didn’t target anyone other than himself.
Everyone talks about their own personal privacy yet feels they are entitled to know every detail about someone else’s life, especially celebrities. Celebrities are put up on a pedestal where we think they can do no wrong yet they are filled with the same issues and concerns everyone else has – they are human afterall. The problem here is not necessarily that DJ Mister Cee is somehow closeted but that someone else felt the need/desire/want to publicly shame him and that action has nothing to do with any kind of trans related guilt, that was done for 15 seconds of fame. I feel there’s more to the story that we don’t know.
Hi my names is Akua Grant. I have been working for years to get the term I invented, trans-attracted into common usage. I wanted a term that didn’t shame the man attracted to transwomen nor transwomen, such as tranny chaser. I feel trans-attracted is the perfect term. It doesn’t deny transwomen or transmen our identity and does not force men and women who are primarily attracted to transpeople to cram in to straight or gay if that’s not what they are.
Akua, I don’t know whether you’re the only person who has proposed this term, but it was running through my head as I read this article. And I’m a straight cis guy, so that would seem to be evidence that it’s spreading as a term :)
I think the concept is important and it didn’t feel like it really came up in the article.
I’d love an overview of transphobic, trans-and-cis-equal, trans-attracted, and trans fetishistic.
The term I know of is “trans amorous” or “Trans Am” for short. Sounds catchy to me.
There must be a t-shirt with that on it, no?
Hi Janet,
I absolutely loved this post. Being a trans-woman that has lived “stealth” for the last 4 1/2 years, I am slowly letting my story out. I have always disclosed early in any potential relationship that I am TS. I’ve been told that I should just keep it to myself, but that makes it sound like my life is something that is deserving of remaining in the shadows.
I am, as all of us are, the sum total of my life experiences combined with how I have reacted and grown as a result. I am proud to have survived, and appreciate the open discourse I have had with my cisgender friends.
thank you for these words, and i’m happy to have a husband that loves me honestly and with pride and never questioned my gender. that makes him specially awesome! being transgender in this world sucks and the depressions and the pressure from the outside can get overwhelmingbut he gives me a reason to life even if i’m still afraid to leave the house.
Dear Janet,
I read the article and just thought, this is an idea whose time has come. I am a straight man who has dated a transgender woman. I did not have an issue with it because I met her as Jan, liked her, took her out and only later learned her secret. But I had already decided I liked her for herself. Her secret took some wrapping my head around, but I did, and I was fine with it. And it was not just a fetish, we went out openly, and she was a wonderful woman. This was years ago when she would not have been able to be as open as you are. I look forward to reading your book when it arrives.
Miles
Before commenting, I viewed Janet Mock’s discussion with Marc Lamont Hill on HuffPost Live. And that conversation along with Ms. Mock’s insightful article has touched my heart and spirit tenfold. Warmest appreciation to the many commenters sharing your incredible stories. Not to mention, others like myself, are here in this information exchange because knowledge is power. If only our nation and world can embrace the ultimate truth that human life of each of us is precious and worthy of respect, dignity and love. That said, as this relates to DJ Mister Cee, I hope he finds that special place in his personal journey that enables him to celebrate his truth should it mean securing happiness with a transgendered woman. May he love himself first, and in turn, share that love with his “lady / future wife” for all the world to see because she is equally worthy of abundant blessings and a “man / future husband” who loves and adores her beyond words. Gratitude blessings, Janet Mock!!
I would indeed be one of these people who would be accused of being “chasers” (though I haven’t really done tha much actual chasing, just that I prefer trans women (amongst other groups) and tend to light up with confidence when I hear that a girl is trans.. But I must disagree with the narrative that is being presented here concerning this being symptomatic of the mythical boogeyman “The Patriarchy”: The fact is that allot of this comes from Feminism and even incresingly amongst transfeminists too, whereupon a man (particularly a non-alpha who is considered average or not all that impressive socially) is defined as being an objectifying fetishist if he has a specific desire and attraction for trans girls (and we won’t even TALK about what might happen if he is especially fond of pre-op!), like he might think that he will relate to them better, or that they might understand him a little more, and is thus usually shunned as creepy and oppressive due to his simply being seen as second grade and thus unfullfilling or validating to the psyche of the transperson.
I am a proud man and have no use for ciswomankind, I can only hope that this community doesn’t mistakenly fall into worshipful reverence over the opinion and attitudes of cis women and, under such pretexts, attempt to destroy us even as we attempt to reach out towards you with open arms of solidarity and fraternity (along with romantic loyalty).
Please do not let cis women alienate us from one another.
Ron, your comment I felt was spot on. The view that being attracted to a transwoman is deviant or obscene is the heart of the problem. My view is that those who don’t identify a transwoman as female in a relationship, view the relationship as gay, which immediately exposes their homophobia. If they find the transwoman attractive the conclusion they draw is that they must be gay (or being forced to be gay – which raises their other disproven irrational fear that being gay/trans is a choice), which again based on their own insecurities can lead to anger, rejection and potentially to violence.
I like to think of myself as progressive, open minded, even liberal…but I guess not so much. It was very interesting to read the article and comments, and to consider a perspective I did not know existed–at least not so prolifically or passionately. I am attracted to and DESIRE traditional(?) women–i.e., non trans women. I would be very upset if I dated a trans woman, even if NO ONE other than I ever knew it. Truly, the act of dating affords us the opportunity to get to know a person. We discover things we like and dislike about them including their history–positive and negative; however, when one outwardly presents themselves as a traditional female and/or conceals ones male characteristics, and does not reveal this in a prompt manner to a given suitor, then that seems fundamentally dishonest…and inconsiderate. I offer this because the vast majority of the comments I read don’t seem to find this necessary.
Dear god. Could someone please push back against the ignorant transphobic BS that is piling up here?
Thing the first: it is 100% ok to be attracted to whomever you are attracted to. If you are exclusively attracted to ciswomen, well, ok – that’s your thing. That’s cool. No one wants to “make” you date anyone you’re not attracted to.
Thing the second: yes, I agree that honesty is a big part of relationships, and if you’re considering a serious relationship with someone, it’s important to tell them things that could impact that relationship. That’s a trust issue right there.
HOWEVER.
Thing the third: there are a LOT of different reasons why a transwoman may not be 100% upfront about her trans status from the get-go. Those reasons could range from “I don’t feel like my genitals have a huge impact on who I am as a person, so I don’t think it’s important to bring it up,” alllll the way down to “I knew someone who was murdered for being trans, so I don’t out myself unless I have already established a great deal of trust with someone.” And everything in between. I am not the person to lay down any sort of hard and fast rule, but in general I would think that there’s no need to go into one’s trans status until a solid foundation of trust and mutual affection has been laid down in a relationship, enough to where the trans person can feel safe that even if you no longer feel sexual attraction, you won’t get violently angry or try to use that knowledge against them. I mean, in a perfect world that wouldn’t be a concern and everyone could be upfront about everything and people could just date and/or sleep with and/or marry whomever they wanted and everyone would be cool with it… but we’re not in this perfect world.
I understand that it must be very frustrating and upsetting to start dating someone, develop feelings for them, and then suddenly discover something about them that causes you to lose physical attraction for them. I can see how it might feel like a betrayal of trust, and how it could be disconcerting to have emotional attachments to someone that you can no longer physically desire. I imagine it might hurt a lot. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make that not happen. But as long as society remains as fucked up as it is, it’s going to happen – because the alternative is transwomen making themselves vulnerable to discrimination and violence, and that’s not ok.
I can only hope that if you ever face this unhappy situation in real life, you’ll think about the reasons why she may have hid this aspect of herself from you, and be compassionate.
Well, why would it be? If you were with a woman and found out that she used to have, say, an extra finger, or a cleft palate, would you suddenly not be attracted to her or think she was “dishonest”? If not, why would discovering that a woman you’re attracted to is trans make you feel that way?
Hi! thx for the great article …. I’m TG and do pretty well in So Cal , alot is about where you live i Think. xoxo Michelle
It’s too bad people spend so much time and energy on things that seem to me as trivial compaired to other real problems we face as human beings. I don’t mean what trans women deal with is trivial. I mean that to me people should be concerned with feeding our hungry children, improving nat’l education, ending welfare abuse, improving health care, etc. People should not be gossiping about someone who may have been born in the wrong body and decided to change it. A persons sexuality isn’t public business. A person should be judged by their actions and how they treat others. Their “heart” as another poster said. Not by physical attributes. I think people have the right to be happy as long as it does not infringe on the rights of another person. Humanity needs an OS upgrade. In conclusion, I would like to say that you’re smokin’ hot and Aaron is a lucky guy.
Thank you so much for this article. I’m a cis queer man in a relationship with a trans queer man. I feel like the luckiest guy in the world. We’re very much in love and our friends and family are happy for us. I have no issue to raise other than support for the dignity, beauty, and courage of all trans-cis relationships.
Thank you so much for this article and for your appearance on Huffpost Live. Your work to raise awareness of transwomen and especially transwomen of color as well as transloving people is so loving and articulate. Thank you for advocating for Mr Cee to have the space he needs to understand his own desires and for encouraging your sisters not to settle for anything less than being openly respected and adored as the smart, strong women that you are. Please know that there are plenty of us out there who have your backs and want you to be seen and heard.
From all the stories that I have read, I see very few that talk about trans woman and bio woman love. There is not much dialogue about it. It is like last era of shaming among the trans family. It is automatically assumed that trans women love only men. That is not true. Love is love. I just wish more trans women and bio women could be more open about it.
Don’t let heteronormativity get you down! There is definitely some lezzie love for all women in a lot of online communities. Autostraddle regularly features lesbian/queer/bi/pan women writers who happen to be trans (http://www.autostraddle.com) Topside Press out of New York is publishing literature about women who are trans & dating other women.(http://topsidepress.com/)
However, before you click the links, maybe you would kindly reconsider using terms like “bio women” in a way that excludes or separates transwomen. All women are biological. Like Ms. Mock said, “Until we begin checking how we delegitimize the identities, bodies and existence of trans women and stigmatize the men[people] who yearn to be with us, we will continue to marginalize our sisters…”
Now, happy hunting for some affirming lady love stories!
That’s not entirely true, see here http://vimeo.com/39522510 for example.
trans woman | cis woman. Cis is the word you want :)
You’ll NEVER “catch” me dating a trans-woman as I’ve broadcast my admiration and intention all over the internet (see my Facebook…friend me if interested). I just attended my third Southern Comfort Conference!
And no shade, but in all honesty, what trans women has Mr Cee been caught with? Not saying he doesn’t like trans girls, but he most definitely can do what he needs to do with a boy or man in a wig, some lip gloss and a purse….and that aint trans.
I transitioned in the early 1980s. There simply wasn’t a trans community then. There was no internet, no twitter, there were a few books to read and that was it really. i didn’t even meet another trans woman to talk to till after my surgery. Consequently I never identified as trans, but as an ordinary woman. I was celibate until my surgery and had resigned myself to never having a boyfriend because of my history. Imagine my surprise a couple of years after my surgery when I met a guy and fell in love with him. We spent the next 20 years together and split up a couple of years ago because we had grown apart. He never treated me as anything other than a woman and never thought of me as trans. we just lived a normal life together with all the usual ups and downs you would expect in any relationship. When i have talked to him about how easily he accepted me he said “it was you i fell in love with not a label” and also he commented that “it was much easier then because nobody knew anything about trans.” I think in many ways he is right. I never identified as trans, he never identified me as trans, i wasnt seen as anything but a normal woman and consequently he wasnt judged for being with a trans woman. I think in many ways the Media’s definition of what a trans woman is, which up unitil recently we have had to accept, has made relationships much more difficult for us than they need to be and much more difficult for men to consider.
For starters, I have to say that no one is better than another and that love is love. As humans we make as much as we want and need as life continues. This shaming of others is a learned behavior and it is disgusting that society has taught us how to be so closed minded about other people in our human race. I love people, not because they are gay, straight, trans-gender, ect. I want someone on my team who can appreciate the person I am as a friend and a human. I have friends who are transgender and they have some of the same issues that I have and I am female. Everyone seeks to be loved and accepted for who they really are and I feel that those who live in glass houses should NOT throw stones. I hope that all the transgender women out there will read this and know that you ARE what you think you are…..just because your birth certificate lists one gender, that doesn’t make you any less who you really are one the inside for as you think, so are you. CLAIM THE FEMININE POWER WITHIN YOURSELF and love who you are. Even Christ judges a man by his heart and for those who judge, remember that what you judge by will be measured back to you. And another thing….FOR ALL MY LADIES AND I MEAN ALL OF YOU, GET TO THE BACK OF THAT CLOSET, PULL OUT THAT FREAKUM DRESS AND PUT ON THOSE HEELS AND LET’S WALK ALL OVER THESE HATERS!
To quote Susan Powter, “Stop the Insanity”!
As someone who is attracted to trans women, and plus-size women, and red heads, and a variety of other types of women, I have had to face the ignorance of society all my life. Most people who are attracted to a particular physical feature, or body type, or ethnic group, have been looked down upon by society as being kinky, or having a fetish, or even being a pervert.
If 75 years ago, a White man was to fall in love with a Black woman in the US, his family and friends would have dis-owned him. If the roles were reversed, the Black man in love with a White woman would in many areas have been killed.
If 50 years ago two men wanted to show their love by holding hands in public in most major cities, they would have been arrested for public indecency, or even beaten to death by the police themselves.
Even today, if a man of average height and weight falls in love with a woman who is, to use the word… Fat, his family and friends will try to fix him up with a woman they feel is “prettier”, or “healthier”, or some other term they may use to describe a woman that fits into their concept of beauty. As long as she is not “overweight” or “a big girl”.
You see, it is not just those of us who feel that a perfect woman does not need to have been born with, or even have, a vagina. That is not what we are primarily attracted to, it is the inner beauty we see when we look at them, that draws us to these women. When we see a woman that we are attracted to in public, we have no idea what is, or was, between her legs. We see what is there to be seen, her face, her figure, her fashion sense, even her personality, long before we ever get close enough to her to even bring up the topic of sex itself.
Though insulting to many, a perfect example of this would be shows like Maury, or Springer, where trans women come out and the audience has to guess if they were born biologically male or female. Most of the audience is totally wrong as to which guests are born male or female. Some people try to use the Adams Apple test, or the deep voice test, not understanding that there are men with naturally feminine sounding voices, such as Jerick Hoffer, (AKA Jinkx Monsoon of Rupaul’s Drag Race), and women born with an Adams Apple, an example being actress Sandra Bullock.
Even within the cis-gender community, there are women who act and sound extremely masculine, while being biologically female, heterosexual, and giving birth to several children. But if you were to meet one of these women, or talk to them on the phone without knowing their name, 99% of the time you would at least initially believe you were speaking to a man.
The point is, society needs to get off it’s high horse, and just accept the fact that the gender binary does not exist. Dr. Kinsey showed many years ago that human sexuality lies across a spectrum, and that very few people are totally heterosexual, or totally homosexual. Most of us are floating in the middle. With modern genetic testing, this fact is being seen not just as a psychological factor, but as a physical factor as well. Biological females with male chromosomes, true inter-sexed people who are both male and female, males who naturally develop feminine breasts at puberty, despite having high testosterone levels, and the list goes on and on.
The reality is that the only “Normal” is to be “Abnormal”. Be who you want to be, love who you want to love, because what two consenting adults do together in the privacy of their bedroom, is nobody’s business. Anyone who can’t handle the truth needs to deal with their own problems and leave everyone else alone.
I’m an Emmy award winning television news reporter, helicopter pilot, retired medic, and transwoman worthy of love. Early in my transition my plastic surgeon warned me of the oppression I will face should I choose to date men. Not because I’m not attractive, kind , or smart, but because of the very things you speak of in your heartfelt essay. How can expect to find a man to love, honor, and cherish me if my own family, including my daughter treats me as something less than human.
I love you and find your strength and message inspirational.
I am a social worker from Chicago. While I agree that trans women should be celebrated and not shamed (See Almodovar’s “Bad Education” and “All About My Mother”), I am a little disappointed that the author is so stuck on the two gender system. My mother is from the Philippines were gender is fluid and there are more than two. I have had some transgender clients state that some people (men and women) are only attracted to transwomen (not all women). I believe this is because transwomen garner different modes of beauty than women. I do agree that we demonize and marginalize trans women, and a lot of it comes from being so steadfast on the idea that there are only two genders. Gender is fluid/flexible. Thank you, it was a great piece.
Hi Janet, I very much appreciate your article. The pervasive shaming of men and women also says to men who may be attracted to transwomen that their attraction is dirty or obscene. One cannot be attracted to a transwoman without it being somehow deviant. RL
Great piece. Special attention to “especially if you also perceive the women you’re attracted to as shameful, as less-than-human objects you must keep secret at all costs.” This helps me reconcile the confusion and near anger I felt reading Mister Cee’s interview. In the interview, he misgendered trans women as men who look like women, and repeated how he only engaged in oral sex, as if anything more would be shameful. Mister Cee repeatedly apologizes for letting people down and I am not sure if that apology is for lying or for being with trans* women. Either way, this is a great piece and I hope Mister cee can continue to unpack what i perceive to be internalized transphobia and homophobia
Great article sister, I could not have done a better job myself.
It’s unfortunate how many narrow minded people are…Human sexuality is WAY too broad to simply classify into hetero or homosexuality…This article is a prime example
Thank you very much for this article. It speaks the truth about how transsexuals are viewed as and treated. I study philosophy in college and I’m a Human Rights activist, and it pains me to see how tgirls are treated by mainstream society; treated as if we are not worthy of life at all. Like your article says, most of our communication with men attracted to tgirls starts online because that seems to be the only place men are willing to profess their admiration for tgirls. I have only encountered one man who actually was proud to say to his conservative family that he is attracted to tgirls and would not be ashamed to date one. We must continue to fight for equality and to change public perception. We may make small gains that seem too small to make any changes, but in a few hundred years trans in the future will look back at us and give thanks.
Thank you Janet for this incredibly thoughtful and eloquent article. These are things that needed saying. And they cannot be said often, or loudly, enough.
It is incredibly frustrating to me how often I am contacted by men who tell me they “need to be discreet”. I have inboxes full of messages from cisgender men who express their undying love and tell me how beautiful I am. But then only want to come over to my place. They are too afraid or ashamed even to meet me in public for a cup of coffee. Certainly there have been exceptions, but by and large they are the rule.
And I have to tell them all, I simply can’t. I am maybe the least discreet person they will ever meet! I’m a 6’4″ improviser and former pageant queen with a penchant for punk rock and a tendency to speak my mind. I am a very visible woman and I will not hide.
It also makes for a pretty topsy-turvy world. I am a proudly queer, pansexual, polyamorous and kink-friendly transwoman. I’ve had adventures most people only fantasize about. But it’s gotten so the “kinkiest” thing I can imagine is a man who wants to take me out on the town, to dinner and a movie, and then take me home to maybe fool around on the couch a little. That is the thing that is unattainable for me.
Thankfully, I’m queer, and I find that many cisgender women tend to be much more open-minded and relaxed about my gender-identity. And other transpeople rock! But I’d really like to have a little old-fashioned romance with a cisman who is proud to watch the heads turn as we walk into a room together…
Thank you so much! This is exactly what I’ve been thinking about and dealing with lately.
If we’re free and accepted now (I wish, but it is better, and we do have allies), who are we going to love? Who’s going to love us? I see it in the eyes of men, otherwise accepting men, who I flirt with, who I fuck with, who I OM with; “I can’t deal with the shame and humiliation of being seen with trans-woman let alone being a partner of a trans-woman”.
Fuck that — I couldn’t deal with the “shame and humiliation” of BEING a trans-woman. But I got over it, and now I’m finally myself and alive and not hiding and I need to tell you (men) that self-acceptance is the ONLY way to be alive.
I hate the concept “trans-woman”, but this doesn’t happen with cis-women so sometimes it clarifies things. That doesn’t mean you get to label me anything other than a woman
Someone please tell me why it’s shameful to be attracted to me?
My life has never been what others wanted it to be but my own. Who I am is really none of anyone’s business. I am a Post op transexual and the men I have dated before were all straight men who knew what they wanted to be with. Most will hide in the dark but just as nice in the light. men are men and the ONE reason they seek Trans women is because we’re are REAL. We don’t hate yet struggle hard to live our own happy life.
One of the reason a REAL Men would seek a Trans woman is because of the BS real women put them through. It’s crazy yet true. But once the world accepts the things they can’t change will be the day that we have settled down and began to accept.
We promise to keep your men happy and well taking care of. But they have to do their part by making the rude world invisible to drama
How nice of you to want acceptance but then paint another group (“real” women) as bad. How hypocritical?
This absurd attitude is a perfect example of how the modern-day Transsexual community has caved to the whims of an ignorant of society, an inept legislative system, and the indifference of the medical and insurance industries. Transsexual people have not only relegated themselves to the notion that they are slowly being accepted as the “transgender” portion of society, but that there is a special type of man, noble and open-minded, who is ready, willing and able to love us despite our weird lifestyle choice.
Transsexualism, Janet, is a condition of birth, not an identity. It isn’t who you are, it’s what you suffer from. If a person is attracted to someone *because* they are “trans”, it’s no different than them being attracted to someone because they suffer from (or previously suffered from) Palatoschisis (cleft palate), or Polydactyly (extra digits.)
If these (or any of the other dozens of congenital birth conditions) are what happen to turn a particular group of men on, that’s their business, and it’s not for me to judge. If certain people born Transsexual want to identify as transgender or “trans” women for their entire lives, and cater to these types of men, that’s also their business, and not for me to judge.
But for a Transsexual woman who has corrected her condition and simply identifies as “a woman”, the idea of being desired specifically because she was born with a condition (one so painful it drives people to suicide) that happens to be some guy’s “kink”, is pretty repulsive. It’s the reason such men have acquired the label of “chasers.” Such men are not some special type of noble creature with a unique open-mindedness. They’re just aroused/intrigued by the idea of mixed body parts, sexual incongruence, or sexual ambiguity – something most Transsexual women struggle with, and many have sacrificed everything to overcome. Or, at least that’s what they did before society started to say it’s “okay” to be “a transsexual.”
The problem with this all-too-familiar argument is that there are all kinds of humans with variations from the biological norm (if there is such a thing in this surgery-obsessed culture) who deserve to be loved for who they are.
The idea that when I become surgically “corrected” I will be able to blend seamlessly into the Binary may be attractive or even ideal for some, but not for all: Janet Mock is a great example.
We all deserve love, even if we’re members of the icky Transgender Borg.
Darya, I believe I made a point of saying that if people want to live identifying as “transgender” women and court the attentions of men who have a thing for “transgender” women, that is their choice, and none of my business. But it is interesting to note that Janet is among those who DID had surgery, and DID blend seamlessly, so she got to CHOOSE in how she wanted to live – something many transsexual women never get. Frankly, I don’t think she can appreciate things from the perspective of someone who doesn’t have a choice, who doesn’t see the identity of “transgender” as particularly appealing since they are more or less forced to wear that label.
Why is this even a topic of ohh.. poor him, he likes Tgirls?he needs a pat , a tissue & a hug.
He is married & that’s wrong so trannies who support that are part of the problem.
If trannies could get somebody to marry them then they would feel the same way too.
Mr. Cee’s secret keeping & lying and creeping affects his whole family and children.
This has less to do with the tranny and more with the chaser.
He is a Tranny chaser!
Married, creeping on the blvd
Taylor Murphy ( the fire fighter ) is more of a stand up guy because at least he is engaged to a Tgirl.
He repeats, treats the ones he goes with well. He may have fought with her, but what couple dont fight.
No one is really ” shaming” these men.
They should be ashamed of the fact they get women pregnant , & ruin their lives with the games & going back and forth. Every type of marriage is legal now in NYC.
Why dont the type of men that secretly enjoy Trannies stay with them?
Because they are sneaky cowards, and they are SELFISH and want the best of all worlds, so they creep in different worlds and communities.
Married, & seriously committed men get NO pass whatsoever in my book for this.
These guys are ashamed of themselves for being liars. Thats not society’s fault
Taylor Murphy having been engaged to a trans woman makes him no less of a chaser in my opinion. That man likes his girlfriends packing and I ain’t talking about luggage. But to each his own, but he’s a chaser for sure. Being attracted to a beautiful woman is one thing, but not giving her a chance because she’s cis-gendered is about as foul as not giving her a chance because she isn’t cis-gendered!
By the way, I am in a committed relationship with a transwoman. In fact she’s featured in one of my vids. It’s time we men stand up.
I had a dear friend of mine who was a trans and then had a sex change. I see nothing wrong with Trans or gays however I do see a huge issue with cheaters… Our former President Clinton cheated on his wife publicly and these other politicians who are showing our kids its ok to cheat just don’t come clean until you must. I agree with most of what you have said but cheaters I totally disagree with.
Women are beautiful because of their intricate design. Every woman is so unique, it amazes me how any man can limit their pursuit of love and partnership by excluding the celebration and exploration of women who are trans. I have loved a trans woman for the last 6 years – and while there have been some struggles, the problems come from the outside and never from within our perfect bubble of a relationship. I can appreciate your eloquent, passionate message Janet because we have to address the fact that trans women are constantly addressed as a joke rather than human beings. ‘I am not a joke’ – that is powerful and so necessary to expand on. More men who love trans women need to gain some accountability here, instead of being cowardly. The men who are in the space to do so, need to find a sense of responsibility for their absence in these conversations. This is why I choose to comment in the midst of the solidarity.
I want to just support what Noah has said. I had a long term relationship with a woman, I did not call her a ‘trans’ woman because nobody was using that term, but we had a relationship based on any man/woman relationship, and I found her attractive and have found other women attractive as well who are in this ‘new’ category of sexuality. I had one recent date with a trans woman but she was not out, so we kept it quiet. I have no problem with it; if I meet a woman and she calls into this category, I will own her and own up to it. If men will speak up more, it will make it so much easier for these women to stand up and be counted themselves; they need to know they are wanted, and there are men out there who do want them, not because they are ‘trans’ but because they are some of the most emotional sensitive and real women out there, given what they have gone through and go through every day.
Thank you for this article Janet. I have my own YouTube page where I am addressing the same issue. I have been trans attractive for most of my adult life. It took me about 12 to 15 years to be able to deal with it. I allowed society to dictate what kind of a man I am. Only after I lost someone was very close to me that I truly understand the damage that I was doing to the transwomen I was dating. Now I’ve become an advocate speaking up and letting everyone know that there’s nothing wrong with loving a woman who just so happens to be trans. I have become a better man for it.
thank you Ms Mock for shedding light and useful information on a whole new world for most of the masses . education is a key that unlocks a whole host of doors and viewing most things through a lense of love and acceptance only enhances our desire to truly know one another . kudos on your writing , look forward to more articles .
This is an important discussion. We must all challenge and evaluate what we accept and your writing continues to open conversation with heart. Thank you.
No seriously, this article is amazeballs. I am in a relationship with a man who (much like myself) loves ALL types of women including trans woman, and I find it interesting that while patriarchy tells your mate Aaron that he can do better than a “fake woman”, it tells me (as a female) partner that I have failed to be worthy because my mate is attracted to “fake women”, or men. It shames us both into a place of feeling as though loving trans women as women makes me less of a woman and him less of a man.
Thank you. :)
I agree with what you say, but want to point out something: many of us who have transitioned have dropped the “trans” label, if we ever used it all. We always felt we were female, that we were women, and once transitioned, we are officially female. I think the “trans” label confuses a lot of people, that it suggests we are something less than female. The media — of which I am part — doesn’t help matters by labelling transitioned women with the “transgender” title (see the Jenna Talackova affair). If we want the media to stop using it, we need to stop using it — and so do the organizations that support us like like GLAAD.
When I went through therapy, my psychologists refused to use the “trans” labels. As far as she was concerned, I was a woman all along.
So, I think transitioned women can help themselves a bit here by not using the “trans” label.
As for my love life, I have no problem gaining acceptance from both men and lesbian women. They accept me as a woman. Period. (I am in a loving relationship with a lesbian-identified person now.)
Anyway, just my two cents worth.
Cheers
Jillian
I’m not sure about this. For a lot of people the trans label is really important to their identity and saying that post-transition trans women (or trans people in general) “shouldn’t” identify as trans can come across as saying that identifying as trans is somehow less than not doing so. I think it would be better, really, to train people to just refer to individuals the way they want to be referred to, otherwise it’s exactly the same phenomenon in reverse.
No disrespect meant at all, but you are something less than ‘female’ or ‘male’. You were not born with female genitalia, nor the ability to produce eggs or bear life in your womb. Yes, I know that there are natural born females who cannot bear children, but they are natural born females nonetheless. I think the term trans-woman/trans-man is more appropriate at this point in time. As a natural born female/woman, I and several female friends have encountered what we presumed were natural born males, who have asked us were we born female upon meeting us. Their reason for asking was because they had encountered transgender women who did not fess up immediately or at all. They would always say it in a joking manner, but I know they were very serious. At first I was offended, then I had to put the shoe on the other foot… I would want to know too, so I always retorted with, ‘were they natural born males?’.
I understand that transgenders feel like they were born into the wrong body, and with the marvels of modern science and technology they can now transform into what appears to be the opposite sex, but where does the distinction begin or end? Is there a distinction? Should there be a distinction? I truly am happy for anyone who finds love and happiness, but I am also for full disclosure.
When living as a transgender person, does one tell potential dates that they were born male/female when they first meet? During the first date? Sometime after the date? Or never? Does one who is transgender even feel that a potential suitor has the right to know of their former status? Or should only the transgender person’s feelings and point of view count, and not those of a potential suitor because one feels that it is a ‘private matter’? Should a transgender person who elects not to tell of their former status be surprised when the suitor reacts angrily because they found out by any means other than being told first hand? Of course these are mostly rhetorical questions, and like most things in life some people will only take their beliefs into consideration, regardless of the beliefs and feelings of others, nor the consequences or repercussions that may follow.
Maybe some transgender people feel it’s not fair, or it shouldn’t matter but unfortunately it does to many. Shame wouldn’t be a factor if trans people only dated those who were openly accepting of them and what they stood for as people. The same holds true for anyone who dates someone who doesn’t respect them enough to be seen with them in broad daylight as well as behind closed doors.
I had a falling out with my natural born female cousin because I found out after she was married that her new husband wanted children and she never told him she couldn’t bear any. Was that fair to him? Shouldn’t he have had the right to decide whether or not to marry her in light of this? Is she right to only think of herself and what she wants? Should I have told him or mind my business? These are moral dilemmas that determine the character of the people involved in my humble opinion.
Having said that, why date or be interested in someone that one has to hide being with? What does that say about self and how one feels about self? One can’t lay that guilt on the other person involved. Until all people are proud of themselves regardless of gender, color, race, etc. and refuse to be with a person who is ashamed of them, or only wants to see them behind closed doors and not in public, then circumstances will never change.
Unfortunately, our society has not evolved enough for gender distinctions not to matter, everything takes time… maybe in a few generations, but until then be comfortable with who you are and who you choose to love if you can… if you can’t and someone wants to rendezvous with you clandestinely and you acquiesce, don’t be angry or ashamed or disappointed in them… be angry or ashamed or disappointed in yourself.
Peace.
I think you completely missed the point.
“if you can’t and someone wants to rendezvous with you clandestinely and you acquiesce, don’t be angry or ashamed or disappointed in them… be angry or ashamed or disappointed in yourself.”
Read that crap again. Seriously. You are the reason that people like Jillian don’t want the “trans” label. Because that label makes people like you treat them like garbage. She should not be taking any advice from you, someone who views her as a second class citizen.
No disrespect, but your reply is the very definition of cissexist bigotry, from start to finish. Your reduction of “real” womanhood to a set of reproductive physical features is what makes it cissexist. Your ranking of women’s bodies based on those same reproductive features is what makes it sexist, as well.
Sigh. Take it up with biology. You are not less or more than any other human being socially, mentally or “spiritually”. But you are not a complete female physically.
Don’t like it? Again, take it up with biology. You remind me of those idiots who claim homosexuality is a “choice”..
@ Janie B. What is incredible is how sexist your reply is, how uninformed, and quite honestly, how ignorant it comes off – no disrespect.
You are literally saying that trans people are LESS. Should they also have less rights? Should it be ok to treat them differently? To disrespect them? To use violence towards them? Because this is what happens when you and society sees a group of people as ‘less’. Do you think your cousin is less of a woman for not being able to bear children? Would you think the same of a woman who’s had masectomy? Or one who’s had to go through abortion? And how do you draw the line as to what is a personal and private matter?
The need to know whether someone was naturally born female/male, regardless of how they identify & present now, reflects more than anything your own insecurities, biases and prejudices.
Whether if and when a trans person decides to disclose their status to a potential partner, it’s their decision alone. Much like it’s your decision alone when to disclose to a potential partner about previous relationships/marriages, whether you have children, or any ‘health conditions’ you might have.
Shame IS a factor because no one should treat trans people differently, no one should disrespect them, and society should not feel ashamed of them. But they are treated differently, as the article describes. Regardless of whether or not you would date a trans person, it should never be shameful that someone else does, or even that trans people exist. They deserve the same treatment as others. Much like other LGBT individuals, people of color, of different ethnicities, etc.
And how absurd of you to judge your cousin on a matter that’s absolutely none of your business. It’s her body, her decision. People should fall in love/marry based on their love for someone, for who they are, how they feel towards them, not perceived abilities or potential (such as bearing children).
Let me preface by saying that this post is addressed to several comments, not just yours Erika…
I apologize if I didn;’t make it clear that I meant less than a natural born woman, not less of a person… I in no way, shape or form think that a transgender person is less of a person/human being than anyone else, and they should be treated with respect and dignity like anyone else.
It seems these days that people want to redefine established meanings to fit their agendas rather than create and abide by new words like ‘transgender’. You can paint an apple orange, and spray orange essence on it, but it’s still an apple. And the ability to bear children, is what has separated the men from the women since the beginning of time, so how am I being sexist?
Going under the knife to change your physical appearance does not change what you were born as, nor does it change who you feel you are inside. You cant erase all that, but you can deny it if you choose to.
As far as treating them differently, people who are different always have to go through some things until it’s fully accepted… not saying that it’s right, but unfortunately that’s just how it is. Transgender people aren’t exclusive to not always being treated nicely. We are getting better as a society… people are becoming more accepting of differences, but it’s gonna take some time.
I am against violence towards anyone, and would like to see any miscreant who abuses anyone be put under the jail. I believe in tolerance. Everyone should be able to live the life they choose, how they choose to live i as long as they aren’t hurting anyone, be they straight, gay, trans, bisexual, or nonsexual. But having said that, why is is so important for gay people to be out and proud, but it’s a private matter for a transgender person to reveal themselves? Why not be proud of that too? I don’t get the hypocrisy.
The only way the discrimination will subside is for people to see them as a normal part of this society, see that they are just like the rest of us with feelings, and aspirations, and are good and bad and indifferent, and just plain human, not a sideshow. That’s the only way that some will get used to the fact that they exist and they’re not going anywhere. No need for celebration nor denigration… just be.
And I dare judge my cousin because she selfishly chose to knowingly deceive a man who clearly wanted children of his own, because he talked about it all the time! And all the while she knew couldn’t have any… she was dead wrong! I didn’t say she had to announce it to the world, just her fiance’. I guess it would be his private issue if he decided to step outside of their marriage and have a few kids on the side. She should have told him upfront, but again, that’s a moral and a character issue. And if you think that a person should be loved and considered marriage material regardless of if they can bear children, gives them the right to be deceitful, that says a lot about you.
If you can’t have kids, and your man no longer wants you, wouldn’t it be best to know that before getting married? In a perfect world, it wouldn’t be a factor and they could adopt, etc, but obviously it’s not a perfect world or this discussion wouldn’t be taking place. People in hell want ice water, but such is life. What we want or think should be isn’t always so. People who feel they can withhold information that will affect someone else’s life in such a grand way are lacking in integrity. They are self serving, lying by omission, untrustworthy, feckless individuals hiding behind the shield of ‘privacy’. There is an unwritten moral code to be honest with the person you claim to love, with whom you want to spend the rest of your life with, about things that affect the both of you. We all have little secrets or tell little white lies, but come on now.
I knew someone would throw in a jumbled mishmash of comparing this issue to people of color, etc… and the female issue to mastectomies, childlessness, abortion, birth defects etc… but a breastless, childless, abortion having, weak heart having one arm and one leg having ‘female’ is still just that… a natural born female… estrogen vs. testosterone… and before anyone goes there, if a transsexual stops taking their meds, what would happen? If a trans-woman/trans-man doesn’t elect to have surgery, should they be considered a member of the opposite sex even though they don’t have the genitalia?
In my opinion too much time is wasted trying to be accepted as females or males instead of putting more effort into being accepted as just people trying to live their lives openly and freely.
Now I even get the part about people feeling they were born with the wrong body, or the brain of the opposite sex… but we can’t see a brain. When a Black man walks down the street, from a distance he can be President Barrack Obama, but all some people will see is a Black man,or a more offensive pejorative starting with the letter ‘N’. Then proceed to clutch their purses and lock their car doors. There is nothing the average Black man can do in that moment to feel more accepted by the world, or to put people at ease. To many, he is immediately categorized because of his Blackness, nothing else. So it is offensive to some Black people to have our strugglse compared to gay issues or transgender issues. Yes there are similarities, but it’s a whole ‘nother thing to many of us. Just like there are similarities between a natural born female and a trans woman, but it’s still a whole ‘nother thing. When Rock Hudson, Portia Di Rossi,or my next door neighbors walked down the street, they were just identified as White men/women, not gay or bi, or anything else until they told it.
Just for the record, Mr. Cee resigned on Thursday, was invited back to the station on Friday to do an interview about his situation, and was convinced to un-resign by the station manager. Time will tell, but he seems to be accepted by his co-workers and a few have spoken out on his behalf in the hip hop community. His candor will go a long way to getting some understanding and acceptance for liking what you like and loving who you love, regardless of what anyone else thinks…kudos Mr. Cee. No labels necessary. Now if he is cheating on his wife and out there with trans-prostitutes, that’s another whole ‘nother thing… lol Peace.
You are ignorant Janie B.
What about people born with Inter sex conditions? Should they say they are less of a woman when they have XY-male chromosomes? They are practically in the same boat as post op trans women.
There are so many people born with DNA / genetic differences It’s impossible to refine gender in “genetics” or “reproducing” You know there are males born with female genetics who can reproduce AS A MALE? Even though their genetics say they are female. Pretty much all you are saying is non-sense and It is putting a group of people down, when In fact you as a woman are in the same group with trans women in society and in law.
Most trans women have a birth certificate of a FEMALE. You can’t say they weren’t born one. They have EXACTLY the same rights as you as a CIS-WOMAN. They are TREATED like a CIS-WOMAN in society, whether you like it or not. You and the trans woman are on the same line, sorry but you have to deal with that. I agree with the fact that you don’t have to say you are a “trans woman” cause the society views you as a woman.
I was born with an inter sex medical condition, and I am in fact a “genetic woman, born woman, whatever” but I have had to step into the shoes of MANY different types of people through my life.
I stand tall and proud for trans women, inter sex women, WOMEN of all kind. We are all equal. And we should live in peace.
Janie B.—just stop, please. Obviously you’re not even informed enough about what transgender identity is to even hold a conversation about it. Furthermore, your own standard for “natural-born” womanhood is so deeply and utterly misogynist that no woman could ever reach it. But that’s the thing about bigotry—it’s a double-edged sword, to paraphrase the great blogger Son of Baldwin. The blade you use on trans women is gonna cut cis women too.
I am confused by your comment Janie B. Do you believe this a moral issue, your cousin not disclosing that she was unable to have children. What moral code requires women to announce that they are capable of bearing children. And what makes women who are infertile natural born women. What about women who have a congenital heart defect are they real women or are women supposed to be perfect specimens. What about women who were born with a male brain, are they natural born women, or is this in the end a moral judgement call you have made which you now generalize across the board. Are women with birth defects lesser women? And who makes the call? Obviously your cousin made a judgement call.
You see Janet’s piece is clearly written to explain society shames men who love women who in your judgement are lesser women, maybe even lesser human beings. It’s like the schoolyard where the friend of the girl with a cleft palate is shamed into mocking her because she is a lesser girl because of it. Is that what you are trying to say society should be doing?
Transgender females or males are just as much a person (not something less) as genetic. Pre SRS they can produce children and many have with the equipment they started with. Birth control is still necessary.
Transitioning is a tough journey and is not for the faint of heart. I am finding that those that have done it have the drive to accomplish a lot, be it in a career, relationship, or life. We should all acknowledge that and then let us judge them on who they are and the content of their character, not just use preconceived notions.
Actually saying that trans people are LESS than other men and women is quite offensive. It is obvious that being a trans, is in your eyes, is less than ideal. Trans people are a different kind of men and women and yet their identities are just a valid as anyone else. We need to really step away from genital based identity ideas and look at what transpires in the heart and the mind of a person. Gender has less to do with whats between your legs and more about self perception and how one likes to be perceived. A lot of non trans people say that if transgender people just offer a full disclosure in the beginning all will be well. Nothing could further from the truth. Even if you do find someone who is totally open and up front about liking trans people they still are subject to the scrutiny of society. There are many trans women who have been victimize because the partner who knew became violent afterward not being able to deal. Even if it doesn’t go that far if it doesn’t work out a trans person can be subject to cruel ridicule from others who know about their identity . Being exposed to people that do not have a healthy interest in your well being is quite dangerous and life altering. These pressure can turn even well meaning people and situations into something ugly and horrible. We don’t need to be told by the societal safe “that”s the way that it is” I don’t know one trans person who is not aware of that harsh reality. I do believe in certain circumstance disclosure is very important but the time and place for that varies from situation and person.
You reaffirmed my decision to remain open, truthful, and proud.
Translation: You are not real women and you trannies should be lucky to have anyone love you!
Dear Jillian, Thank you for writing that. As a ciswoman, I’ve been wondering why the trans prefix have to be used since that person is now technically a woman but I’ve been afraid to ask. I don’t want to offend anyone.
Great article, look forward to sharing and using as a platform for ongoing discussion around these crucial issues, keep doing what you’re doing Janet!
OK, in the last year I have met many Transwomen on a “transactional” basis. It has been quite remarkable, the most attractive women I have now met in my life are Transwomen and each one was a total sweetheart, genuine, and someone I would be proud to call a friend.
It will be a slow journey for society to understand and accept the Transgendered and those that associate with them. I actually think there is less acceptance than for gays, yet the actual relationships are quite straight. Around what is called the hobby, guys are quite terrified about being known that they are attracted to or worse have been intimate with a Transwoman, yet there is an incredible level of interest.
Thank you so much for the article, it will only change when most of society see the TG community as ‘normal’ and valuable, it only took me meeting one for me to realize they were both real and sincere.
This reminds me of how many transwomen are being targeted, especially in the NYC area, as sex workers with the awful Stop and Frisk policy. Stop and Frisk is targeting the minority trans community disproportionately, and many transwomen who are caught with condoms and are with their boyfriends/husbands are being arrested as a sex workers!
Going along with your post, it shows how society views transwomen in general…that there is no way that a straight male would ever actual date a transwoman, so the fact they are together automatically means that she is a sex worker (going back to your idea of your secret/devious interactions with transpeople) Very upsetting indeed.
This article is so timely as my 13 yr old trans daughter was just lamenting about not having a boyfriend and that she may never have one until she’s “20 something” (which as a 43 yr old, I think “save you some heartache sister”). Nevermind that she had a boyfriend about a month after her physical/social transition with a boy who knew her *as* a “boy”! Thank you speaking so eloquently to these issues. You seem to be as beautiful on the inside as you are on the outside.
One thing we need is a non-pejorative name for persons who are attracted to trans-people in particular.
In other words, we need to stop shaming “tranny chasers” if we have any chance of climbing out of this pit.
I have been using “trans-lover” but I think we can come up with something better than that.
Jamie, nice to see your name pop into view again.
I think I have it, that non-pejorative for guys that find women attractive. I think BOYFRIEND could work though I recognize the youthful implications of the word. It has a history of acceptance and is used commonly to identify any man, or male that is attracted to another person. If a relationship develops over a long time perhaps, a live in together or very closely associated in a similar way you could use partner, or husband if it the parties, the couple are comfortable with that identifier.
In other words we do not need a new term for someone that loves women. We can stop identifying them as different. THough I would say I have a desire to raise them up, these guys that have found us and want to be with us. I am always wary, always skeptical. The shadows of fear, shame, stigma still swirl around me even when I think I may have escaped and found that someone wants to be with me. AHHH but I am a creature of time and experience.
If I just start going out a bit with a guy again I would just refer to him as my friend until it gets to a point, if it does that we have a few sleepovers and such then he might make it to boyfriend status. If we go a ways down the timeline and its all good, mostly good, he might make partner status. Husband? Omigawd, I just don’t know. I might be just too old a dawg to indulge in that but then again I try not to lock and bolt the door before I find it.
I am one of these men, Janet. However, my life changed pretty drastically a little over a year ago and it made me take inventory of what was really important. I couldn’t be afraid of what society thought anymore. Somehow, through a stroke of destiny, I was able to find my fiance. She is the most breathtaking woman I have ever met – body and soul. I’m a very VERY lucky man. There have been detractors but most of my friends haven’t treated her as anything other than my girlfriend and future wife.
You are an inspiration to her and to me. When she can, she speaks at educational events to help inform people about issues women like you face. You’re kind of her idol ;)
Please keep fighting the good fight because too many women like you and my fiance have to hide. Never hide Janet. Thank you.
I admire your courage & confidence! I’m hopeful one day I’ll have the strength to look fear in the face.
One of the biggest culprits that inflicts this damage to us is Showtime. I think I have seen one or two of their series that didn’t contain transmisogyny. Take Ray Donovan for example. One of his clients is a movie star that fell in love with a trans woman and Ray is trying to protect his reputation by not letting that get out. DISGUSTING!
Yeah, but you do know that many of the stories from Ray Donovan are based on real events that didn’t get out. The fact that they’re showing it doesn’t make it worse because if people didn’t have their close minded attitudes it really wouldn’t matter. But on that very same episode, if the trans girl is using herself to shame him and extort money from him to keep his secret, we’re no better than they are. We call ourselves trannies and queens and unless you’re referring to yourself as the spouse of a king, queen isn’t anything I wish to be known as so we have to get over our own shit and issues before we expect anyone else to treat us like gold. We have to treat ourselves like we’re precious and make it be known that we know our worth and value and only expect certain treatment. Unfortunately, many of us do no such thing!
I am a Trans- woman of color, living in the Bible belt, and head over hills for a man who worships the ground that I walk on. We will be celebrating 5 years next April. We attend church together, we grocery shop together, he’s ex-Navy so we travel together, and he lets the world know that I am his woman. Love is possible, but I believe that both parties have to be willing to do the work, and understand that the relationship is slightly non-normative, so that you’re able to defend your relationship if you have to. I was recently accepted to Columbia University School of Medicine, and being that he has a very flexible occupation we made the conscious decision to move to the Big Apple; he made the conscious decision to make me his wife. I am a Trans- woman beautifully creative, intelligent, and resilient. I am in love with a man who loves me more, so my sister’s love is definitely possible. So respect yourselves, respect your bodies, and most of all respect each other. Great work Janet, you are an inspiration. – Rayne
It’s sad what happened to DJ Mister Cee. He felt he had to hide, after countless scandals around this situation, and now he has chosen to give up his career. In his mind he believes that hip-hop culture won’t allow him to be himself.
Hi Janet,
Firstly, thank you for the lovely article. It puts into words feelings I have long had, that trans women ARE worthy. Worthy of all that life, love and this world has to offer. That others who see that worth and are attracted to it should not be shamed because we are nothing to be ashamed about.
I do have one question though. The line “It is rare for an openly trans woman – no matter how sickening she is – to have a man who openly loves her,”
Did you mean to use the word “sickening” here? If so why did you choose that word and to whom is she “sickening”? herself? to others? her spouse/partner?
Or was this a simple typo?
Thanks again for all that you do,
Nicki
Thanks Nicola. “Sickening” is slang in the trans women’s community. Being that I do not offer a translation, I was moved to edit it to “passable” or attractive. Thanks for your question; it’s wise to be clearer with language choice.
Thanks for the clarification Janet.
I totally agree with what you say about language. Words have power and it’s important that they convey the exact meaning and concepts we intend. I liked the fact that you put the scare quotes around the word “passable” but I think I would disagree with linking so called “passability” to attractiveness. After all, isn’t the whole point of the article that people can be legitimately attracted to trans people?
Nicki
I can gladly offer a translation of the slang word for “sickening”. It’s like saying someone’s beauty is mind blowing when in reality your mind isn’t going to blow up. It’s just a way of saying someone is so breathtaking that it makes you “sick” with envy, jealousy, ….you know how humans can be.
This is a great article, thanks for posting. I think it goes for anyone who dates any trans person. I’ve had my lesbian status questioned more times than I care to count for *daring* to date a trans woman, moreover one with a high level of confidence and self-esteem. We are both faced with stigma for who we are; a lesbian trans woman seems to be less acceptable than a straight one; as a cis lesbian dating a trans woman I encounter more raised eyebrows and criticism than if I were with another cis woman. However I do believe the problem is worse for men dating trans women – there isn’t room in a patriachal, cissexist society for a man to openly express loyalty and love for a trans woman without having a reinforced steel barricade to protect him from the so called ‘scandal’ of his life choices. I was told recently, ‘You know, it would’ve been easier just to date a *normal* [by which he meant cis] woman.’ Case in point. I didn’t realise love was supposed to be ‘easy’…..
Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective. I’d choose to be careful and not to compare who is “less acceptable” because I think everyone’s experiences vary depending on many circumstances, but I do agree that there are similarities between anyone in relationship with a trans woman or trans man. To me, it boils down to delegitimizing our identities, people not accepting that we are who we say we are, therefore our partners must deal with defending their attraction, love or relationship. I also agree that no relationship is “easy.”
“trans women that they are only deserving of secret interactions with men, further demeaning and stigmatizing trans women.” SO TRUE IM SO WITH TOU ON THIS ! SISTER
Thank you for a very insightful piece on a subject very close to my heart.
I too am a Trans woman, though living my life alone, wondering if I will ever find “My Man” and realising that yes we are seen as shameful by the general public, therefore someone wanting to be with us needs incredible strength of character to endure the unending questions and laughter..
If one day I do find “My Man” there is one thing you can be sure of, just like Aaron, he will be an extraordinary Man, one with the ability to stand tall and outshine all other men in so many ways.
I wish you Love, Luck and Honesty….. Thank you again, CKG
Thank you so much for sharing, Charity. I am grateful for your generosity and openness. It angers me that we must overcome many societal obstacles in order to freely be ourselves and share ourselves with someone. I wholeheartedly hold onto the faith that you will find him, and he will be lucky to share life and love with you.
That is so true Janet, but hopefully the times they are a’changing, thanks to articles such as this.
Why should cheaters not be shamed? A cheater should be shamed whether they like a transexual or someone of the opposite sex. Cheating is not acceptable behavior. And, there are no passes for cheating because one is struggling with their sexual desires.
That’s your judgement call, and cheating is a private matter. What I am discussing in this piece is the shaming of any man who desires to be with a trans woman. If Mister Cee had been “caught” with a cis woman, I’m sure there would be no major gossip headlines and this “sex scandal” would not be a trending topic.
Cheating is a private matter that is often addressed in a public manner when addressing public figures. It also viewed as a character trait, which allows people to offer judgment. However, I agree that men and women should not be shamed for adult relationships.
While your up on that soap box you should know Mr. Cee isn’t married. Cheating is wrong no matter who does it but this article isn’t about infidelity. So try to stay on topic next time please.
This is bullshit. Trans women are NOT women.real or otherwise. If I put on a monkey mask and expect society to treat me as a monkey, I’m asking too much. If ur gay ur gay. That’s fine. If ur a man who like to dress as a woman and pretend to be a woman, also fine. Who cares what people do if they are not hurting anybody? But when I’m expected to participate in someones personal fantasy (acknowledging a man as a woman or vice versa) that’s pushing ur vanity too far. The whole concept of FREEDOM is to do what u want to but u can’t force unreality on people and expect everything to go the way u want it. Peace.
Women come in all shapes sizes and experiences. Women from the trans community are indeed women. And miggzzybaby if you want to wear a mask and be treated like a monkey I’m willing to put you in a cage and let you hang out with the other monkeys. Far be it for me to not do so.
{Just love when people use silly arguments like that one to try to say they are right in something}
This article says much about the necessity of destigmatizing trans women. How in the world you made it merely about cis men, and something as trivial as condoning cheating is beyond me. For the record calling out men who cheat is fine. Calling out the fact that they cheat with rans women is not fine.
Who is cheating?
Mister Cee – the man used as an example in this piece – is a single man. Not married. Not dating/in a relationship with anyone.
He isn’t and hasn’t been shamed for cheating.
“someone of the opposite sex”?!?!?!?!?!? excuuuuuse me- us female trans ARE the opposite sex than men…
“someone of the opposite sex”??? us female trans ARE the opposite sex than men!!!
Jenifer, I think its all in the interpretation because I read it as saying: attracted to a trans woman, or someone of the opposite sex = a man. Meaning a man being shamed for cheating with a woman OR a man, it is still cheating regardless of his sexual desires.